Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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strad wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:07 am
Moving Heating/Cooling to all-electric (combined with better-insulated houses) along with moving to 100% renewable generation (including keeping Fission in the mix) is certainly achievable, any one who suggests differently is being closed-minded.
So you think everybody has that kind of disposable income.
Luckily my house is well insulated and all hydro electric powered but if I was running natural gas and not so well insulated I could never afford to pay to switch over and buy a bunch of new insulation just to satisfy somebodies whims it would bankrupt me.
Since even the IPCC says their claims are just possible scenarios your asking a lot from a lot of people. IMO
I realise it isn't possible for everyone to fund upgrading their houses by themselves - I think governments need to step in and provide a helping hand to those who cant afford to upgrade their house insulation etc themselves. This has been happening to a limited extent in Australia. Poorly insulated houses is really a combination of Market and Government failures.

The market will always seek to minimize costs and maximize profits, so if Gov's pass the buck on building codes (like they have for many decades in Australia), they then need to step up and help fix the situation.
Last edited by djos on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:27 am
Strangely I never said we couldn't. My post merely pointed out tgat UK Govt wants to move lots of usage on to renewably sourced electricity. Therefore more will be required to be generated.
Sorry, I was targeting you specifically - it was more of a general statement targeting those who throw it into the too hard basket.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:13 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:18 pm
good advertising .... but actually ....
charging them is mainly by burning fossil fuels turned into delivered electricity at 40% efficiency
it doesn't even matter whether EVs are the best use of the low-carbon aka renewable electricity that we haven't got
it's going to be solar and wind power:
The UK Government has committed to 40GW of installed offshore capacity by 2030,[17] bringing overall UK wind capacity to over 50GW, the UK electricity demand is between 30-40GW in 2019.[18]
wikipedia
no it's not going to be solar and wind power .....
unless we ignore and leave to fossil fuel the demand for heating - this is far greater than the demand for electricity
Sorry but you´re confusing different matters. Heating can be done with anything, solar (both PV or thermic), wind, electricity from a nuclear plant, geothermic, aerothermic energy...

But anycase most renewable energy will be solar and wind power unquestionably, maybe in the future sea/currents energy will be significant, but we´re decades far from that, now what every country is installing is solar and wind generators

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 pm

even HM Govt now recognises this - after 20 years of pretending otherwise
though they still brainwash with the happy-clappy image of EVs saving the world
electrical heating expansion should progress in co-ordination with EV takeup progress
brainwash??? :wtf:

I agree cars and ICEs are not the main cause for pollution as it´s house heating, but that´s light years far from meaning it´s brainwashing. They´re the second cause for pollution and respiratory diseases into the cities, maybe even the first as cars exhausts are much much closer to our noses than are roof chimneys whose gases get disolved into the atmosphere before we breath it

And no, electrical heating expansion should not progress! #-o It´s the lack of heating needs what should progress with much much better isolated buildings and complying with any passive house standard wich reduces heating needs around a 90%. It is perfectly doable decades ago, and it´s even viable and profitable from an economical point of view with an investment wich is paid of in 5-10 years as much due to the huge savings acomplished

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:08 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:40 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 pm
[...]
we are going to ignore heating obviously, because we are talking about cars being run on electricity instead of fossil fuel, and the expansion of electricity generation is all going to be solar and wind power. Have another pic: :)
Well UK Govt has plans to ban the use of gas heating for new build houses from 2025. If they do that, then heating will have to be electric of some sort.
Hopefully their plan is doing what they should have done decades ago, mandatory passive buildings so heating demands in new buildings will be marginal.

But I can´t rely on any politician about this, their interest is their own interest, not popullation interest. They have never protect our life or health before energy companies interests. If we get ill that´s not their problem, but they ensure energy companies continue with 10 digit benefits :-#

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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strad wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:07 am
Moving Heating/Cooling to all-electric (combined with better-insulated houses) along with moving to 100% renewable generation (including keeping Fission in the mix) is certainly achievable, any one who suggests differently is being closed-minded.
So you think everybody has that kind of disposable income.
Luckily my house is well insulated and all hydro electric powered but if I was running natural gas and not so well insulated I could never afford to pay to switch over and buy a bunch of new insulation just to satisfy somebodies whims it would bankrupt me.
Since even the IPCC says their claims are just possible scenarios your asking a lot from a lot of people. IMO

What do you think is the cost of isulation? It´s one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest part of a building, and save you money daily. I´m constructor engineer and I´ve wondered since I was at the university about the reason isulation is used as if it was made of gold, when it´s extremelly cheap and using 2x 3x current thickness would improve isolation dramatically with an almost insignificant cost, saving mountains of money (and CO2 emissions) in the future

IPCC claims possible scenarios because they´re reasonable people and know they can´t predict future accurately on a complex matter like this. But they know for sure there will be changes caused by our emissions.

Edit Thunder: be nice ;)

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:58 am


Hopefully their plan is doing what they should have done decades ago, mandatory passive buildings so heating demands in new buildings will be marginal.
No chance of that happening. When the last major change of Government happened in the UK, one of the first things the incoming Conservatives did was water down/killed off the zero-carbon requirements for new housing. And then they watered down/killed off other higher standards. And did their best to kill off domestic PV by watering down the FIT.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 am
....And did their best to kill off domestic PV by watering down the FIT.
the PV supporters are always telling us how PV costs have plummeted
without the 'watering down' the poor would have been subsidising the middle classes even more
PV uptake seems far from 'killed off'
mysteriously the costs seemed to fall only after the FIT (subsidy) was reduced
the costs of PV cost reduction being the subsidies paid by all the non-PV electricity consumers
to this day the running cost of electrical heating (subsidising all renewables) is 4x the cost of fossil fuel-based heating

there's a lot of houses in the UK (and severe demand due to unplanned population rise by importation)
how is that lot to be so greatly improved as to be heatable by renewable electricity ? (if allowed by the EV lobby)
please tell me so that I can get my house done - ie what kind of insulation is to go where in and on what part of the house
wall cavities pretend to be insulated but are conflicted by being open to/via loft space in the name of 'ventilation'
does 'insulating' cladding external to outer wall replace 'insulating wall' cavities ?
and combustible external cladding has a poor image here at present

if there's publicity of the issue the UK economy (uniquely reliant on maintaining unnaturally high property values) might crash
insulation is relative not absolute - so not the 'magic' that some want to generate in using that 'I word'
for almost 50 years we have had public subsidy of domestic 'insulation' - isn't the whole housing stock already 'insulated' ?

nzjrs
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:46 am
for almost 50 years we have had public subsidy of domestic 'insulation' - isn't the whole housing stock already 'insulated' ?
I've lived in a bunch of countries and I would (subjectively) rate the quality of the median middle/lower class home insulation in the UK as hilarious. UK folks also run around in shorts in winter, so maybe there is just something in the water up there.

Anyway, I've always believed it is wiser to focus more on addressing carbon emissions on the supply (generation) side. You always want to have to change as few minds as possible. As the world economy pulls the average standard of living higher, every person is going to want just as many gizmos as their neighbors.

Jevon's paradox is a harsh and unforgiving mistress.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:58 am


Hopefully their plan is doing what they should have done decades ago, mandatory passive buildings so heating demands in new buildings will be marginal.
No chance of that happening. When the last major change of Government happened in the UK, one of the first things the incoming Conservatives did was water down/killed off the zero-carbon requirements for new housing. And then they watered down/killed off other higher standards. And did their best to kill off domestic PV by watering down the FIT.
So that´s happening all around, not just in Spain. Not a surprise sincerely, we are all humans after all so politicians weakness are the same at any country

How true was that sentence from Churchill...
democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:46 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 am
....And did their best to kill off domestic PV by watering down the FIT.
the PV supporters are always telling us how PV costs have plummeted
without the 'watering down' the poor would have been subsidising the middle classes even more
PV uptake seems far from 'killed off'
mysteriously the costs seemed to fall only after the FIT (subsidy) was reduced
the costs of PV cost reduction being the subsidies paid by all the non-PV electricity consumers
to this day the running cost of electrical heating (subsidising all renewables) is 4x the cost of fossil fuel-based heating

there's a lot of houses in the UK (and severe demand due to unplanned population rise by importation)
how is that lot to be so greatly improved as to be heatable by renewable electricity ? (if allowed by the EV lobby)
please tell me so that I can get my house done - ie what kind of insulation is to go where in and on what part of the house
wall cavities pretend to be insulated but are conflicted by being open to/via loft space in the name of 'ventilation'
does 'insulating' cladding external to outer wall replace 'insulating wall' cavities ?
and combustible external cladding has a poor image here at present

if there's publicity of the issue the UK economy (uniquely reliant on maintaining unnaturally high property values) might crash
insulation is relative not absolute - so not the 'magic' that some want to generate in using that 'I word'
for almost 50 years we have had public subsidy of domestic 'insulation' - isn't the whole housing stock already 'insulated' ?
If I get what you were asking, yes, external isulation replaces internal one. As an example, in Spain houses isulation has been...

Up to 80s-90s:
- External wall (brick, concrete or whatever)
- Air chamber of around 5-10cm
- Internal wall (brick, plasterboard...)

Up to 2008:

- External wall
- 2-3cm isulation (different materials I´m not going to look for a translation)
- Air chamber
- Internal wall

From 2008 to present:

-Same but isulation now must be around 6-8cm thick


Passivehaus buildings must be isulated from the outside instead of into the air chamber of the facade, removing thermical connection/bridges (not sure about the term in english), and isulation must be 10-15cm thick.



About ventilation, passivehaus standard requires an almost hermetic house, ventilation is done via an air pump wich crosses inlet and outlet so new fresh air from the exterior gets some of the heat of the foulded air going out, reducing energy demands even more.

That´s one of the benefits of passive houses, not only isulation and heating savings, also air quality into the house, as air is filtered. Also, since they don´t need to be ventilated opening windows, dust cover and cleaning demands are also drastically reduced

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:14 pm
Passivehaus buildings must be isulated from the outside instead of into the air chamber of the facade, removing thermical connection/bridges (not sure about the term in english), and isulation must be 10-15cm thick.

About ventilation, passivehaus standard requires an almost hermetic house, ventilation is done via an air pump wich crosses inlet and outlet so new fresh air from the exterior gets some of the heat of the foulded air going out, reducing energy demands even more.

That´s one of the benefits of passive houses, not only isulation and heating savings, also air quality into the house, as air is filtered. Also, since they don´t need to be ventilated opening windows, dust cover and cleaning demands are also drastically reduced
heavily insulated houses make so much sense, with a heat exchanger in the ventilation as you say

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strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I agree that adding insulation is one of the best way to lower your heating bill etc. However I also know people who live paycheck to paycheck and just plain can't afford the outlay of even the modest cost of adding insulation.
And after our many discussions, and after thoroughly researching the subject I have to still think the IPCC is just pushing propaganda. Living and working on the water I have not seen 1 inch of higher water levels along our coast.
The problem is that they, the IPCC, put out what is clearly a prediction and when called on it not coming to fruition they only then fall back on the excuse that what they said/predicted was only one of many possible "scenarios".
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Mercedes are doing their bit, probably after Lewis hassling Ola all the time :D :
Statkraft is offering industrial energy consumers in Germany a 100% renewable power supply contract, signing up car maker Daimler as the first major customer.

The contract, implemented by Daimler’s energy provider Enovos, will deliver clean power to all of the car maker's sites in Germany, with a large proportion of the electricity generated by local solar and wind power plants.

Statkraft will generate the remaining volumes from its German hydropower plants.
https://renews.biz/57650/statkraft-plug ... gy-supply/

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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strad wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:24 pm
I agree that adding insulation is one of the best way to lower your heating bill etc. However I also know people who live paycheck to paycheck and just plain can't afford the outlay of even the modest cost of adding insulation.
And after our many discussions, and after thoroughly researching the subject I have to still think the IPCC is just pushing propaganda. Living and working on the water I have not seen 1 inch of higher water levels along our coast.
The problem is that they, the IPCC, put out what is clearly a prediction and when called on it not coming to fruition they only then fall back on the excuse that what they said/predicted was only one of many possible "scenarios".
sea level rise is pretty gradual and variable from one place to another, for example https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html
But yes the richer people have to lead the way don't they, just like not everyone could afford a Model S but this year there's a lot of choice around £25k, because those wealthier buyers had built the scale

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strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I find sea levels interesting because the levels have shrunk (during ice ages) and risen(as the ice age ends) hundreds of feet.
When there was miles thick ice covering much of North America there were many places where people could migrate walking across what is now sea beds and when the ice receded cities were covered by what's now ocean.
""""""At the height of the recent glaciation, the ice grew to more than 12,000 feet thick as sheets spread across Canada, Scandinavia, Russia and South America. Corresponding sea levels plunged more than 400 feet."""""
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss