Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:00 am
You are not comparing like with like
I thought I was quite clear that I was only talking about the engine itself And not the entire fuel cycle in my ICE comment.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:20 am
Great speech but the realities of Hydrogen just dont stack up for most vehicle types, short-range trucks included - I can see it is the better option for Heavy Interstate trucks and maybe freight trains due to the easy and fast refueling, but that's about it.
That´s what the post was about, isn´t it?
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:33 pm
FCEV is much better for 300+ miles applications and BEV is usually better under 300 miles.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:13 am
djos wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:20 am
Great speech but the realities of Hydrogen just dont stack up for most vehicle types, short-range trucks included - I can see it is the better option for Heavy Interstate trucks and maybe freight trains due to the easy and fast refueling, but that's about it.
That´s what the post was about, isn´t it?
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:33 pm
FCEV is much better for 300+ miles applications and BEV is usually better under 300 miles.
No, dont agree with that - as I posted, I see FCV's as being Heavy Interstate Trucks and Freight trains. I don't see 300 miles being a good yardstick at all - I see the use case being the decider.

I (and most ppl) could happily drive 800-1000 km's in a BEV on an interstate trip and charge the vehicle while we have lunch or dinner - assuming there is fast charge infra along the way. This isnt an option for long haul trucks, 30-60 mins of charge is simply not going to "re-fill" a BEV truck. that's why I said FCV's will be better for interstate trucks and freight trains.
Last edited by djos on Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Will there be a FCV airplane?

Will an electric motor and fuel cell be too heavy in comparison to a jet engine?

Xwang
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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FW17 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:23 am
Will there be a FCV airplane?

Will an electric motor and fuel cell be too heavy in comparison to a jet engine?
I think that the future of air transportation is using synthetic fuels made using captured CO2 and renewable energy (when and only when environmental concerns will be so high to force flight operator to be more "green")
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:15 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:13 am
djos wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:20 am
Great speech but the realities of Hydrogen just dont stack up for most vehicle types, short-range trucks included - I can see it is the better option for Heavy Interstate trucks and maybe freight trains due to the easy and fast refueling, but that's about it.
That´s what the post was about, isn´t it?
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:33 pm
FCEV is much better for 300+ miles applications and BEV is usually better under 300 miles.
No, dont agree with that - as I posted, I see FCV's as being Heavy Interstate Trucks and Freight trains. I don't see 300 miles being a good yardstick at all - I see the use case being the decider.

I (and most ppl) could happily drive 800-1000 km's in a BEV on an interstate trip and charge the vehicle while we have lunch or dinner - assuming there is fast charge infra along the way. This isnt an option for long haul trucks, 30-60 mins of charge is simply not going to "re-fill" a BEV truck. that's why I said FCV's will be better for interstate trucks and freight trains.
The interview was with someone from a truck company, they´re analysing from their pov, he never mentioned cars or individual transport, he´s talking about trucks. And he was very clear in that regard, weight is crucial to make a truck profitable and over 300miles the excessive weight of the huge battery needed would reduce the payload too much.

Obviously cars don´t have that problem, but he´s not from Tesla, he´s from Nikola, even if both names have an obvious relationship, the companies actually are from completely different markets :P

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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FW17 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:23 am
Will there be a FCV airplane?

Will an electric motor and fuel cell be too heavy in comparison to a jet engine?
Yes at the moment they are too heavy, but even so some manufacturers are developing some, so I guess they see it possible in a near future

Apart from the Cessna of the picture and headline, they mention some other projects at the bottom if you want to see what real projects are under development
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rst-flight

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FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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https://www.dlr.de/tt/en/desktopdefault ... bid-10743/

A small slow experiment. Hope they find support to move to regional sized aircraft such as a bombardier.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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FW17 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:23 am
Will there be a FCV airplane?

Will an electric motor and fuel cell be too heavy in comparison to a jet engine?
Yes too heavy and it requires to much volume in case of compressed hydrogen. Cryogenic would make it easier but is also difficult.

@Strad, just wanted to share the opinion to spark some discussion. 😉

I believe he done his homework for the business case of the North American market but it the use case and business case is also a demographic thing. Here in Europe it could be much different. If they can make hydrogen for 4 dollars a kilo, which is possible.. Than it should be possible to outperform diesel also from a cost point of view.

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Djos - The 70% figure for EVs does not include generating ANY power. So you are not comparing like with like.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:06 pm
The interview was with someone from a truck company, they´re analysing from their pov, he never mentioned cars or individual transport, he´s talking about trucks. And he was very clear in that regard, weight is crucial to make a truck profitable and over 300miles the excessive weight of the huge battery needed would reduce the payload too much.

Obviously cars don´t have that problem, but he´s not from Tesla, he´s from Nikola, even if both names have an obvious relationship, the companies actually are from completely different markets :P
True but the statement was pretty blanket and they are planning to make a BEV utility last I checked (I could be wrong).
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:43 am
Djos - The 70% figure for EVs does not include generating ANY power. So you are not comparing like with like.
True, but It included the grid transmission from the source, as it did with the Hydrogen cycle so both are starting from the same point which was: take electricity all the way to "make car move".
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:45 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:06 pm
The interview was with someone from a truck company, they´re analysing from their pov, he never mentioned cars or individual transport, he´s talking about trucks. And he was very clear in that regard, weight is crucial to make a truck profitable and over 300miles the excessive weight of the huge battery needed would reduce the payload too much.

Obviously cars don´t have that problem, but he´s not from Tesla, he´s from Nikola, even if both names have an obvious relationship, the companies actually are from completely different markets :P
True but the statement was pretty blanket and they are planning to make a BEV utility last I checked (I could be wrong).
Yes, but they manufacture both so there´s no reason to have an agenda towards any of them. If any of them would have a real advantage (in every scenario) they would focus on it instead of investing on a technology wich don´t provide any advantage. Business is business

For cars I agree the advantages of FCEV are diluded tough

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just watched this video and thought it was well reasoned.

[media] [/media]
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Not bad but he's fallen for the large land vehicle (Nikola) story, I see no reason why BEV trucks/buses are worse than FCEVs. For aircraft why not burn CNG directly instead of stuffing around with generating electricity from NG, then electrolysing the water, then transporting the hydrogen to the airport? Actually that bit of the video is misleading, electrolysis is NOT the main way used to generate hydrogen.

The holy grail is an electrolysis solution that uses solar directly. If that happens (I'd put it as about as likely as fusion, but there are some tiny scale projects that seem to work) then it'll be a whole new ballgame.