Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Breaking news, useful data or technical highlights or vehicles that are not meant to race. You can post commercial vehicle news or developments here.
Please post topics on racing variants in "other racing categories".
User avatar
Andres125sx
355
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Greg Locock wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:16 pm
Thanks for the downvote. The IEA says that FF use will increase up until 2040 just like BP does.
You´re welcome, but it was due to the lack of respect and failure to comprehend my point, not because whatever says the IEA :wink:

edit: and thanks for the childish downvotes, Greg and Strad :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Andres125sx
355
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html

Xwang
Xwang
29
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
This is the technology I would like to see tested in F1/FE.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

User avatar
Big Tea
145
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Nice, but what sort of current would you need to charge a car in 15 seconds?

This is really the way forward if it is more than hype.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

Brake Horse Power
Brake Horse Power
15
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Guess you'd at least want 100km if range so that's 20kWh. This is a relatively small capacity battery but not a small battery.. Supercap are not energy dense at all, you can use it for some peakshaving and lifetime extension of the Lion, but the lion is getting relatively cheap so you can never beat that. Also I don't think lion has a lifetime problem anymore as the batteries outperform the vehicle lifetime wise. So how can it be agame changer?

User avatar
Big Tea
145
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:49 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Guess you'd at least want 100km if range so that's 20kWh. This is a relatively small capacity battery but not a small battery.. Supercap are not energy dense at all, you can use it for some peakshaving and lifetime extension of the Lion, but the lion is getting relatively cheap so you can never beat that. Also I don't think lion has a lifetime problem anymore as the batteries outperform the vehicle lifetime wise. So how can it be agame changer?
What is the practicality of using caps to hold the charge for speed of charging and feeding it to the batteries at a rate they can accept?

For instance. a 1 min charge to give say 50 miles worth feed to the battery and a small amount for instant use.

Sort of -charge and drive 50 miles then charge again until batteries topped off?
It would fix what seems to be a big drawback for some, of having to hang about for the charging time if you can not charge at home.


Edit, now that I have re read it, I sound like a tool #-o
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

User avatar
strad
271
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Thunder I agree about not caring about my number. It just seems odd the way the rules are enforced.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
strad
271
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:02 am
Greg Locock wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:16 pm
Thanks for the downvote. The IEA says that FF use will increase up until 2040 just like BP does.
You´re welcome, but it was due to the lack of respect and failure to comprehend my point, not because whatever says the IEA :wink:

edit: and thanks for the childish downvotes, Greg and Strad :lol: :lol: :lol:
You silly person. I have not and did not downvote you or anyone. :P
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
strad
271
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Ah, "legally required"? or 'legally permitted'?
.
Required mate...as in by law required.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Brake Horse Power
Brake Horse Power
15
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Greg Locock wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:49 pm
Yes actually I do. Big companies in first world countries have a responsibility to present accurate forecasts for their shareholders. if they are found to have deliberately manipulated the data then they face VERY BIG FINES. This may not be the case in the developing world.

It is of course a sign of a weak position to attack the source of the data rather than the data itself. So, please present your better data, with sources. You'll actually find many reputable sources use BP.
Hi Greg, I'm sure BP is doing their very best to present accurate numbers also because it's the bases for mega investments. Tough if you look at a BP energy outlook from (just) 2014 and the latest version, the differences are significant. Probably the shift to renewables will only accelerate compared to their latest report. The amount of shareholders voting to comply with the Paris agreement is growing step by step.. EU will also make another increase their reduction goals.

But a lot needs to happen to reach those ambitious goals..

User avatar
Andres125sx
355
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:49 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Guess you'd at least want 100km if range so that's 20kWh. This is a relatively small capacity battery but not a small battery.. Supercap are not energy dense at all, you can use it for some peakshaving and lifetime extension of the Lion, but the lion is getting relatively cheap so you can never beat that. Also I don't think lion has a lifetime problem anymore as the batteries outperform the vehicle lifetime wise. So how can it be agame changer?
LiIon lifetime is a problem, actually it is THE problem, opposite to what most people think, problem is exactly that, liftime, not range. If a LiIon battery would be used for its full capacity, range will be 3x the actual range (more than enough), but then lifespan will be 1-2 years, same as any other LiIon battery from smartphones, laptops, handtools, etc. Remember they are exactly the same batteries.. well not in smartphones as those are flat, but still same technology.

None will purchase an expensive EV whose expensive battery (yes they´re still very expensive) will last 1-2 years and then will need a replacement, so they limit both minimum and maximum voltage to increase lifespan. Lithium batteries degrade proportionally to the difference to the storage voltage wich is around 3.7-3.8v.

So it´s exactly lifespan what need to be improved. If they manage to double lifespan, then they can use more of the real capacity of the battery to increase range

User avatar
Andres125sx
355
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

strad wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:35 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:02 am
Greg Locock wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:16 pm
Thanks for the downvote. The IEA says that FF use will increase up until 2040 just like BP does.
You´re welcome, but it was due to the lack of respect and failure to comprehend my point, not because whatever says the IEA :wink:

edit: and thanks for the childish downvotes, Greg and Strad :lol: :lol: :lol:
You silly person. I have not and did not downvote you or anyone. :P
If that´s the case, then sorry for my wrong assumption

User avatar
Andres125sx
355
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:40 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Nice, but what sort of current would you need to charge a car in 15 seconds?

This is really the way forward if it is more than hype.
That´s a good question, but I guess equally to the car taking that huge amount of energy in few seconds, that ultra-mega-hyper fast charger will use capacitors too. Otherwise using a 20kWh battery as an example, you´d need 20kW for a 1h charging... *60= 1.2MW for 1 minute charging... *4= 4.8MW for 15 seconds charging. Not very practical I guess :lol:

Anycase BrakeHorsePower raised a good point, 20kWh battery is not that small. Now I see this more interesting for FE and racing in general than for road cars

User avatar
djos
144
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Very good video from EE on owning electric vs gas cars.

[media] [/media]
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Brake Horse Power
Brake Horse Power
15
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:57 am
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:49 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:35 pm
15 seconds charging graphene batteries in progress. This would open up a new scenario with EVs, instead of using big and heavy batteries, they could be really small with very limited range but who would care if you can charge in less than a minute

Imagine an EV with the instant torque of electric motors, lack of noise and vibrations, and lighter than a ICE car so also better handling, cornering and braking :o =D>

https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/202 ... y/328.html
Guess you'd at least want 100km if range so that's 20kWh. This is a relatively small capacity battery but not a small battery.. Supercap are not energy dense at all, you can use it for some peakshaving and lifetime extension of the Lion, but the lion is getting relatively cheap so you can never beat that. Also I don't think lion has a lifetime problem anymore as the batteries outperform the vehicle lifetime wise. So how can it be agame changer?
LiIon lifetime is a problem, actually it is THE problem, opposite to what most people think, problem is exactly that, liftime, not range. If a LiIon battery would be used for its full capacity, range will be 3x the actual range (more than enough), but then lifespan will be 1-2 years, same as any other LiIon battery from smartphones, laptops, handtools, etc. Remember they are exactly the same batteries.. well not in smartphones as those are flat, but still same technology.

None will purchase an expensive EV whose expensive battery (yes they´re still very expensive) will last 1-2 years and then will need a replacement, so they limit both minimum and maximum voltage to increase lifespan. Lithium batteries degrade proportionally to the difference to the storage voltage wich is around 3.7-3.8v.

So it´s exactly lifespan what need to be improved. If they manage to double lifespan, then they can use more of the real capacity of the battery to increase range
This topic has been discussed before. NMC batteries usually go to 90% Depth of Discharge in automotive applications. Where did you get the 30% d.o.d.?