Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:54 pm
This topic has been discussed before. NMC batteries usually go to 90% Depth of Discharge in automotive applications. Where did you get the 30% d.o.d.?
Can´t remind, it´s the conclusion from different articles as no manufacturer publish that data.

Where did you get that 90% dod? I don´t know any lithium based battery wich will last 6-8 year with that high dod

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:14 am
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:54 pm
This topic has been discussed before. NMC batteries usually go to 90% Depth of Discharge in automotive applications. Where did you get the 30% d.o.d.?
Can´t remind, it´s the conclusion from different articles as no manufacturer publish that data.

Where did you get that 90% dod? I don´t know any lithium based battery wich will last 6-8 year with that high dod
Tesla PowerWall and their big brother the utility scale batteries are rated for high DoD levels. They wouldn’t be much use otherwise.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

NL_Fer
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:14 am
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:54 pm
This topic has been discussed before. NMC batteries usually go to 90% Depth of Discharge in automotive applications. Where did you get the 30% d.o.d.?
Can´t remind, it´s the conclusion from different articles as no manufacturer publish that data.

Where did you get that 90% dod? I don´t know any lithium based battery wich will last 6-8 year with that high dod
Lithium doesn’t really degrade from high cycles. They do from overheating and keeping them at a full or empty Soc for a longer time. This can be prevented with proper battery management.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:14 am
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:54 pm
This topic has been discussed before. NMC batteries usually go to 90% Depth of Discharge in automotive applications. Where did you get the 30% d.o.d.?
Can´t remind, it´s the conclusion from different articles as no manufacturer publish that data.

Where did you get that 90% dod? I don´t know any lithium based battery wich will last 6-8 year with that high dod
Here is an UK manufacturer of battery packs, they use the same AESC cells as are in a Nissan Leaf. The datasheet states that the BMS limits to 90% discharge. That the battery actually uses almost its full capacity can be seen on the voltage range which is between 37 and 49 Volt. The voltage of a battery really makes a big rise or drop when fully charged or discharged so they are in that area with these specs.

https://hyperdriveinnovation.com/technology/

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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That datasheet look standar for those cells, but that does not imply when used into an EV they will use those parameters, each manufacturer will use their own depending on the warranty they will offer. They don´t mention cycle life either. And they (hyperdrive) look like new cells, not the cells used in EV up to now

Interesting anycase, but unfortunatelly lithium batteries suffer this problem and I don´t think any manufacturer solved it yet or he´d be supplying all EV manufacturers and range would have increased significantly

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:52 am
That datasheet look standar for those cells, but that does not imply when used into an EV they will use those parameters, each manufacturer will use their own depending on the warranty they will offer. They don´t mention cycle life either. And they (hyperdrive) look like new cells, not the cells used in EV up to now

Interesting anycase, but unfortunatelly lithium batteries suffer this problem and I don´t think any manufacturer solved it yet or he´d be supplying all EV manufacturers and range would have increased significantly
Actually these packs are used in EV conversions and exactly these Cells are used in a Nissan leaf. I can show you numerous of datasheets and usually these NMCs are rated at 2000 cycles leaving 80% usable capacity. Lfp can do more cycles but is less energy dense.

If you want to check it you can probably find data of 2170 cells and the configuration in tesla model 3. Just check the maximum cell capacity, multiply with cell configuration. See what the difference is Tesla mentions and you will know their max D.O.D.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Not the article I was looking for, and this does not claim 30% but 50% real capacity use, but anycase my point stands, real range would be enough (double) with longer cycle life wich does not force manufacturers to limit dod and soc
EV makers must further account for capacity fade in a clever and non-alarming way to the motorist. This is solved by oversizing the battery and only showing the driving range. A new battery is typically charged to 80 percent and discharged to 30 percent. As the battery fades, the bandwidth may expand to keep the same driving range. Once the full capacity range is needed, the entire cycle is applied. This will cause stress to the aging battery and shorten the driving ranges visibly.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... vehicle_ev

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Here is a more scientific approach...

https://pushevs.com/2018/04/05/samsung- ... ung%20SDI.

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just an incidental on this. Elon Musk's Tesla driven by Starman is just passing Mars again.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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hollus
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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That explains why mars appears so bright right now.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Not sure if this video has been posted here or whether people have seen it - it's a few weeks old now. It's an interesting take on the EV / PHEV equation from the point of view of someone that has run an EV as a family car, and has tested a lot of cars over the years.

I think his views, as discussed at the end, are quite relevant and I generally agree with him (mentioning this is in the spirit of transparency).

I'm impressed by how much the PHEV is doing on electricity - about half of the miles so far in his tenure of the vehicle. That will doubtless change to some degree over the next 6 months, but for many people in urban areas, there will be times when they are running in EV mode more of then than not.



Oh, and please don't shoot the messenger. I post this here to aid the discussion not to try to prove a particular point.
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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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hollus wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:48 pm
That explains why mars appears so bright right now.
https://www.whereisroadster.com/
Not bad between charges. :mrgreen:
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:23 pm
Not sure if this video has been posted here or whether people have seen it - it's a few weeks old now. It's an interesting take on the EV / PHEV equation from the point of view of someone that has run an EV as a family car, and has tested a lot of cars over the years.

I think his views, as discussed at the end, are quite relevant and I generally agree with him (mentioning this is in the spirit of transparency).

I'm impressed by how much the PHEV is doing on electricity - about half of the miles so far in his tenure of the vehicle. That will doubtless change to some degree over the next 6 months, but for many people in urban areas, there will be times when they are running in EV mode more of then than not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15n6QAe8cE

Oh, and please don't shoot the messenger. I post this here to aid the discussion not to try to prove a particular point.
I d think PHEV's make sense for large SUV's (here in Australia) as they are what most families do their interstate/country driving in. I do think most other passenger vehicles that spend 100% of their time in metro areas are better off being 100% BEV's. PHEV's are far too complicated for my liking and I'd hate to own one outside of warranty when something breaks or the battery pack dies.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:35 pm


I d think PHEV's make sense for large SUV's (here in Australia) as they are what most families do their interstate/country driving in. I do think most other passenger vehicles that spend 100% of their time in metro areas are better off being 100% BEV's. PHEV's are far too complicated for my liking and I'd hate to own one outside of warranty when something breaks or the battery pack dies.
The point with PHEVs is that they cover all the bases pretty well. For someone living in a city where public transport isn't great, the EV makes sense. For anyone living outside of cities, the PHEV makes more sense. As the video I linked shows, the PHEV can still be using electricity as much as dino-juice in semi-urban/semi-rural environments. The chap in the video lives in the Cotswolds near Oxford in the UK (although he was driving in another nearby town). I drive around the same area a lot for work and seeing how much that PHEV was using the EV mode makes me think again about one.

I don't see that the PHEV is any more complicated than a BEV - both have motors and regen systems and batteries. Any argument against a PHEV and possible battery pack issues applies just as much to a BEV, of course. So that argument against the PHEV isn't really vary fair.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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The issue of battery degradation and the effect on mpg (not range as it wasn't really designed for EV mode) was a concern with the original Prius. They were very pleased to find that in real life the mpg is scarcely affected - the big gains in mpg are from 1 regen/acceleration cycle.