Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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DChemTech wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:44 pm
Who cares about top speed or acceleration comparisons anyway?
None of these things matter for a consumer car. If anything, I hope Tesla stops focusing on such indicators, and just makes a decent, affordable and efficient car, and rather with a top speed of 130 than 250.
I´m hoping that too for decades from Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti... Stupid car makers :P :mrgreen:


Musk was extremelly smart, he´s that wealthy for a reason. EVs can´t be affordable with current battery technology because they´re expensive, so no car manufacturer can offer an affordable EV commuter. So Musk said, ok, if my cars have to be expensive, they will be expensive but they also will be luxury cars so the huge ammount of money my customers will pay will have a reason apart from being an EV

If people have to pay an expensive price for EVs, with Tesla they at least will get a luxury car. That´s Tesla filosophy, and IMHO it was spot on

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:03 am
DChemTech wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:44 pm
Who cares about top speed or acceleration comparisons anyway?
None of these things matter for a consumer car. If anything, I hope Tesla stops focusing on such indicators, and just makes a decent, affordable and efficient car, and rather with a top speed of 130 than 250.
I´m hoping that too for decades from Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti... Stupid car makers :P :mrgreen:


Musk was extremelly smart, he´s that wealthy for a reason. EVs can´t be affordable with current battery technology because they´re expensive, so no car manufacturer can offer an affordable EV commuter. So Musk said, ok, if my cars have to be expensive, they will be expensive but they also will be luxury cars so the huge ammount of money my customers will pay will have a reason apart from being an EV

If people have to pay an expensive price for EVs, with Tesla they at least will get a luxury car. That´s Tesla filosophy, and IMHO it was spot on
On the other hand, it does help the EV to look sexy. Electric bikes are still in the phase before that for instance. All the manufacturers are busy developing the equivalent of the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe while there is a huge opportunity to design an earth shattering dragster kind of bike, with a ludicrous rear tire, stretched and be the king of the stoplight sprint. Even as a lover of EV’s, a Zero just doesn’t do it for me yet.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Agree Jolle

I forgot to mention for an EV, if you add enough battery to get decent range as Tesla do, then installing a powerfull motor is peanuts, it´s not like ICEs that a big v8 or similar increases the cost drastically, with electric motors the motor cost is very very small.

Electric setups does need both a powerful motor and a huge battery to provide insane power, but since the battery is already installed because they want to provide huge range, then it would be stupid to not make use of it installing also a powerful motor

With EV the motor cost is almost irrelevant, at least when you compare it with the cost of ICEs

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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How much extra does it cost to build and fit a V8 compared with a smaller engine? There are many people who would be interested in accurate figures on this.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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If you're going to want to fit a V8, the car needs to be designed to do so, for a start. A larger engine bay is required, or at least the layout of components needs to be considered to ensure adequate space. But that doesn't necessarily make it more expensive than a car designed not to have a V8. Shoehorning a V8 in where it wasn't intended will be more expensive because things have to be altered.

As for the engine itself, presumably the extra cost is in the extra metal - a V8 uses more metal to form the block, etc, than an inline 4, for example, along with extra pistons, valves, etc.

I'd have thought the cost difference wouldn't be that high.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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One place where ICEs are likely to remain is in military equipment. The use of liquid hydrocarbons just makes more sense than any alternative for that use. Even then the ICE isn't perfect as you have to get the fuel to the front line, but that's the case with all energy resources, and tanking a few cubic metres of fuel around is easier than finding a charging point on a battlefield. Filling up the vehicle is also quicker, of course.

Of course, there will be the political game of "green washing" the decision and we'll see synthetic fuels used by the military for that reason. The expense of such fuels is less of an issue.

No one is going to be building EV MBTs, EV fighter jets, EV troop carriers, etc.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:28 am
One place where ICEs are likely to remain is in military equipment. The use of liquid hydrocarbons just makes more sense than any alternative for that use. Even then the ICE isn't perfect as you have to get the fuel to the front line, but that's the case with all energy resources, and tanking a few cubic metres of fuel around is easier than finding a charging point on a battlefield. Filling up the vehicle is also quicker, of course.

Of course, there will be the political game of "green washing" the decision and we'll see synthetic fuels used by the military for that reason. The expense of such fuels is less of an issue.

No one is going to be building EV MBTs, EV fighter jets, EV troop carriers, etc.

Right, even heavily non-emissions compliant ~80 year old 2T Detroit Diesel engines have continued to be
supported for military purposes, (being 'exempt' from civil standards & still otherwise deemed 'fit for purpose').

I expect that electric/electro-hybrids may be useful for certain specific purposes such as surface vehicles
where low emission activity per: smoke/quiet/temperature/stealth, is a useful attribute/potential requirement.

As for Euro-zone road-user civilians - isn't the 'Big Brother' apocalypse pending - from 2023?
With mandatory 'spy-ware'/'speed-limiters' to report/enforce compliance with speed limits?
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:12 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:03 am
DChemTech wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:44 pm
Who cares about top speed or acceleration comparisons anyway?
None of these things matter for a consumer car. If anything, I hope Tesla stops focusing on such indicators, and just makes a decent, affordable and efficient car, and rather with a top speed of 130 than 250.
I´m hoping that too for decades from Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti... Stupid car makers :P :mrgreen:


Musk was extremelly smart, he´s that wealthy for a reason. EVs can´t be affordable with current battery technology because they´re expensive, so no car manufacturer can offer an affordable EV commuter. So Musk said, ok, if my cars have to be expensive, they will be expensive but they also will be luxury cars so the huge ammount of money my customers will pay will have a reason apart from being an EV

If people have to pay an expensive price for EVs, with Tesla they at least will get a luxury car. That´s Tesla filosophy, and IMHO it was spot on
On the other hand, it does help the EV to look sexy. Electric bikes are still in the phase before that for instance. All the manufacturers are busy developing the equivalent of the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe while there is a huge opportunity to design an earth shattering dragster kind of bike, with a ludicrous rear tire, stretched and be the king of the stoplight sprint. Even as a lover of EV’s, a Zero just doesn’t do it for me yet.
Its an issue of physics, custom bikes with GM LS V8s have been available for years, but even these Al engines
are far too massive for anything but straightline posing, & the same applies to battery bikes, you have a choice,
no range, or range but no steering/handling/braking finesse, & if its super-expensive too, like those helo-turbine
bikes, then its a very limited market, & a poseur biker usually wants a 'full house' of 'sound & fury' to deploy...

A 2 tonne plus Tesla can 'disguise' its mass/inertia to a fair extent, (as do huge ICE SUV performance vehicles),
but this is of course, not applicable to a proper sports motorcycle...
"I believe in the Workers Revolution & I believe in the Final Solution,
I believe in the Shape of Things to Come, & I believe I'm not the only one..."
: Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks).

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:48 am
How much extra does it cost to build and fit a V8 compared with a smaller engine? There are many people who would be interested in accurate figures on this.
So many factors. The cars that usually have a V8 option are designed around a V8 (if they do a good job, having it lengthwise with a prop shaft to the rear). Everything is beefed up for that heavy engine and the weight distribution is so that it’s still balanced. If you design a car for a FWD 4 in line, it changes so many of the design choices that it can actually be a lot cheaper. That probably why for European cars, only the premium saloons are offered with a V8, while “normal” every day/peasant 🙈 cars are limited to a 4 in line (like normal Volkswagens, Renaults, FIATs, etc (with a compact V6 sometimes).
Cars and car design are one of the few distinctive differences still between the different continents. For example, the Mercedes E class. Mid sized saloon in the US, in Europe a big saloon and sold predominantly with a 1.8 petrol or diesel 4 in line. The S class is rare. Most used cars are the size of the Renault Clio-Megane or Fiesta-Focus with more and more use of cars like the VW Up or Aygo/107/C1. Having a V8 is very rare in Europe.

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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J.A.W. wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:41 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:12 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:03 am


I´m hoping that too for decades from Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti... Stupid car makers :P :mrgreen:


Musk was extremelly smart, he´s that wealthy for a reason. EVs can´t be affordable with current battery technology because they´re expensive, so no car manufacturer can offer an affordable EV commuter. So Musk said, ok, if my cars have to be expensive, they will be expensive but they also will be luxury cars so the huge ammount of money my customers will pay will have a reason apart from being an EV

If people have to pay an expensive price for EVs, with Tesla they at least will get a luxury car. That´s Tesla filosophy, and IMHO it was spot on
On the other hand, it does help the EV to look sexy. Electric bikes are still in the phase before that for instance. All the manufacturers are busy developing the equivalent of the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe while there is a huge opportunity to design an earth shattering dragster kind of bike, with a ludicrous rear tire, stretched and be the king of the stoplight sprint. Even as a lover of EV’s, a Zero just doesn’t do it for me yet.
Its an issue of physics, custom bikes with GM LS V8s have been available for years, but even these Al engines
are far too massive for anything but straightline posing, & the same applies to battery bikes, you have a choice,
no range, or range but no steering/handling/braking finesse, & if its super-expensive too, like those helo-turbine
bikes, then its a very limited market, & a poseur biker usually wants a 'full house' of 'sound & fury' to deploy...

A 2 tonne plus Tesla can 'disguise' its mass/inertia to a fair extent, (as do huge ICE SUV performance vehicles),
but this is of course, not applicable to a proper sports motorcycle...
I don't agree with you. Bikes like the Diavel have a very limited range, not just by the size of their fuel tank but also their use. They are just to uncomfortable. Range doesn't have to be above 150 km or something, most of those bikes are only driven 30-50km at a time. As for the size of the battery pack, an e-motor with more power doesn't actually uses more energy when doing the same kind of ride with a smaller e-motor, just the few sprints cost a lot. The battery from a lightware or 1½ the battery pack of a Zero would be sufficient to make an EV Diavel (and would smoke even the Plaid)

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Zynerji
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:36 am
If you're going to want to fit a V8, the car needs to be designed to do so, for a start. A larger engine bay is required, or at least the layout of components needs to be considered to ensure adequate space. But that doesn't necessarily make it more expensive than a car designed not to have a V8. Shoehorning a V8 in where it wasn't intended will be more expensive because things have to be altered.

As for the engine itself, presumably the extra cost is in the extra metal - a V8 uses more metal to form the block, etc, than an inline 4, for example, along with extra pistons, valves, etc.

I'd have thought the cost difference wouldn't be that high.
I would expect an I4 to cost roughly 60% of the cost of a V8 just quick accounting of the #parts/#machined surfaces.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:36 am
If you're going to want to fit a V8, the car needs to be designed to do so, for a start. A larger engine bay is required, or at least the layout of components needs to be considered to ensure adequate space. But that doesn't necessarily make it more expensive than a car designed not to have a V8. Shoehorning a V8 in where it wasn't intended will be more expensive because things have to be altered.

As for the engine itself, presumably the extra cost is in the extra metal - a V8 uses more metal to form the block, etc, than an inline 4, for example, along with extra pistons, valves, etc.

I'd have thought the cost difference wouldn't be that high.
I would expect an I4 to cost roughly 60% of the cost of a V8 just quick accounting of the #parts/#machined surfaces.
That seems reasonable. How much does an engine cost the car manufacturer? We know that buying the engine separately as Joe Public can be expensive - if you buy all of the parts to build a car it will cost a lot more than the cost of the built car from a dealership, after all - but how much does a typical V8 cost GM themselves, for example? We'll likely never know, of course.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Zynerji
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:28 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:36 am
If you're going to want to fit a V8, the car needs to be designed to do so, for a start. A larger engine bay is required, or at least the layout of components needs to be considered to ensure adequate space. But that doesn't necessarily make it more expensive than a car designed not to have a V8. Shoehorning a V8 in where it wasn't intended will be more expensive because things have to be altered.

As for the engine itself, presumably the extra cost is in the extra metal - a V8 uses more metal to form the block, etc, than an inline 4, for example, along with extra pistons, valves, etc.

I'd have thought the cost difference wouldn't be that high.
I would expect an I4 to cost roughly 60% of the cost of a V8 just quick accounting of the #parts/#machined surfaces.
That seems reasonable. How much does an engine cost the car manufacturer? We know that buying the engine separately as Joe Public can be expensive - if you buy all of the parts to build a car it will cost a lot more than the cost of the built car from a dealership, after all - but how much does a typical V8 cost GM themselves, for example? We'll likely never know, of course.
I've seen the dealership cost of a replacement BMW N54 engine charged at $800. Obviously, the dealership charged the customer $4400 for it to be installed.... I expect it costs BMW about $400 to make if they sell to dealers for that price.

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:28 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:36 am
If you're going to want to fit a V8, the car needs to be designed to do so, for a start. A larger engine bay is required, or at least the layout of components needs to be considered to ensure adequate space. But that doesn't necessarily make it more expensive than a car designed not to have a V8. Shoehorning a V8 in where it wasn't intended will be more expensive because things have to be altered.

As for the engine itself, presumably the extra cost is in the extra metal - a V8 uses more metal to form the block, etc, than an inline 4, for example, along with extra pistons, valves, etc.

I'd have thought the cost difference wouldn't be that high.
I would expect an I4 to cost roughly 60% of the cost of a V8 just quick accounting of the #parts/#machined surfaces.
That seems reasonable. How much does an engine cost the car manufacturer? We know that buying the engine separately as Joe Public can be expensive - if you buy all of the parts to build a car it will cost a lot more than the cost of the built car from a dealership, after all - but how much does a typical V8 cost GM themselves, for example? We'll likely never know, of course.
For car's that can fit a V8, you have to see it in reverse. They are designed with a V8, what money is saved putting in a 4L. A GM pushrod is of course a lot cheaper then a low volume DOHC dual turbo AMG V8.
A stacked 4L with integrated gearbox and diff, that is mass produced is a way lot cheaper then a heavy V8, trans, prop and diff (and extra subframes to mount suspension etc).

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:34 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:28 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:15 pm


I would expect an I4 to cost roughly 60% of the cost of a V8 just quick accounting of the #parts/#machined surfaces.
That seems reasonable. How much does an engine cost the car manufacturer? We know that buying the engine separately as Joe Public can be expensive - if you buy all of the parts to build a car it will cost a lot more than the cost of the built car from a dealership, after all - but how much does a typical V8 cost GM themselves, for example? We'll likely never know, of course.
I've seen the dealership cost of a replacement BMW N54 engine charged at $800. Obviously, the dealership charged the customer $4400 for it to be installed.... I expect it costs BMW about $400 to make if they sell to dealers for that price.
That seems like excellent value. Land Rover charge around £15k for a replacement 3.0 V6 diesel. But they are money grabbing bar stewards...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"