Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Cold Fussion
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Cold Fussion » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:44 am

Australia is also fairly unique since ~65% of the population lives in the 5 state capitals, which are all separated by 800+km. Making matters worse, the population density of the 5 state capitals is around the level of a small European city. It isn't unreasonable to think Australia will be the last bastion of the ICE.

AJI
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:14 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:15 am
I guess one problem for Australia generally is that so much is imported. And so much of that comes a long way. Perhaps a home-grown choice might be more economic?
One particulary 'progressive' (and extremely short lived) government effectively put a bullet in the head of our car industry when it nudged in a policy that commonwealth cars should be hybrid. Not a terrible idea, but there was no stipulation that they should be predominantly made here, even though we had a car industry..!
In the race to the moral peak we ditched a properly thought our plan in favour of a popular plan. The taxi industry swapped next, then fleet sales failed, and finally retail sales flopped.
I'm not particularly protectionist, I think the cream should naturally rise to the top; but a country that only a very short time ago transported our Prime Minister in locally built cars, now use BMW's, because there's no locally built option...

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:33 am

Cold Fussion wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:44 am
Australia is also fairly unique since ~65% of the population lives in the 5 state capitals, which are all separated by 800+km. Making matters worse, the population density of the 5 state capitals is around the level of a small European city. It isn't unreasonable to think Australia will be the last bastion of the ICE.
You're probably right. We may very well be the last first-world country to ditch the ICE. 10~15 days of no diesel and it'd be 'The Purge'

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Greg Locock » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:47 am

Agriculture will be diesel based for the foreseeable future. A tractor ploughing fields sits at 100 kW or more for days at a time.

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:01 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:15 am
Cold Fussion wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:27 am
unfortunately a boring mid size hatch in Australia will be between 20-35k AUD, where as all these electric hatches start north of 50k AUD.
I guess one problem for Australia generally is that so much is imported. And so much of that comes a long way. Perhaps a home-grown choice might be more economic?
The Hyundai Kona is 19k in UK and is quite a good car, the electric version is 30k. Even without all the ice parts.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Greg Locock wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:47 am
Agriculture will be diesel based for the foreseeable future. A tractor ploughing fields sits at 100 kW or more for days at a time.
So what? No one is saying everything should be electric today. Some stuff benefits from it - local commuting traffic is a good example - and some stuff just doesn't- your ploughing tractor example.

Electric cars are best suited to journeys that ICE is rubbish for - crawling in urban environments.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 pm

Been thinking about this and was unsure if it lived here or in a new thread.

The government in UK, which is where I live get directly about 60p a ltr tax on petrol. this is, according to a quick google, £28BN a year.

In addition to this, they get tax from the delivery vehicles, companies, employees and refineries concerned with getting it to the pump.

If everyone starts charging at home, what is going to happen, do they rise the cost of every unit, or meter the car and charge it. What if you charge it from panels or wind turbine on the garage roof?

They are already smarting from the new rates of vehicle tax, which is costing them hard, I do not see it being long before they bring in some Tax or another.

This is a whole can of worm in its self. Either you pay the same rate to cook and heat the house, or they load for road use and a huge slice of the advantage of having an electric car is gone.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 pm
Been thinking about this and was unsure if it lived here or in a new thread.

The government in UK, which is where I live get directly about 60p a ltr tax on petrol. this is, according to a quick google, £28BN a year.

In addition to this, they get tax from the delivery vehicles, companies, employees and refineries concerned with getting it to the pump.

If everyone starts charging at home, what is going to happen, do they rise the cost of every unit, or meter the car and charge it. What if you charge it from panels or wind turbine on the garage roof?

They are already smarting from the new rates of vehicle tax, which is costing them hard, I do not see it being long before they bring in some Tax or another.

This is a whole can of worm in its self. Either you pay the same rate to cook and heat the house, or they load for road use and a huge slice of the advantage of having an electric car is gone.
Australia is having a similar taxation dilemma. Road tax comes mostly from petrol. I can see a shift in taxation policy from fuel excise to actual kilometres driven...

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:50 pm

Greg Locock wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:47 am
Agriculture will be diesel based for the foreseeable future. A tractor ploughing fields sits at 100 kW or more for days at a time.
What kind of period are you talking about?

I am actually developing an electric tractor, capable to do ploughing and stuff. It is not easy, but is possible. And most important, it is viable.

AJI
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:50 pm
Greg Locock wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:47 am
Agriculture will be diesel based for the foreseeable future. A tractor ploughing fields sits at 100 kW or more for days at a time.
What kind of period are you talking about?

I am actually developing an electric tractor, capable to do ploughing and stuff. It is not easy, but is possible. And most important, it is viable.
What do you charge it with on a farm? A diesel generator... Best to just keep the engine in the tractor.

Brake Horse Power
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:33 pm

Energy will, obviously, be from renewable energy. I suppose a solar panel works great in Australia

Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:42 pm

AJI wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 pm
Been thinking about this and was unsure if it lived here or in a new thread.

The government in UK, which is where I live get directly about 60p a ltr tax on petrol. this is, according to a quick google, £28BN a year.

In addition to this, they get tax from the delivery vehicles, companies, employees and refineries concerned with getting it to the pump.

If everyone starts charging at home, what is going to happen, do they rise the cost of every unit, or meter the car and charge it. What if you charge it from panels or wind turbine on the garage roof?

They are already smarting from the new rates of vehicle tax, which is costing them hard, I do not see it being long before they bring in some Tax or another.

This is a whole can of worm in its self. Either you pay the same rate to cook and heat the house, or they load for road use and a huge slice of the advantage of having an electric car is gone.
Australia is having a similar taxation dilemma. Road tax comes mostly from petrol. I can see a shift in taxation policy from fuel excise to actual kilometres driven...
There is talk here in the UK of "road pricing" i.e. paying tolls. Which is, amusingly, a step back about 150 years...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:46 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:42 pm
AJI wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 pm
Been thinking about this and was unsure if it lived here or in a new thread.

The government in UK, which is where I live get directly about 60p a ltr tax on petrol. this is, according to a quick google, £28BN a year.

In addition to this, they get tax from the delivery vehicles, companies, employees and refineries concerned with getting it to the pump.

If everyone starts charging at home, what is going to happen, do they rise the cost of every unit, or meter the car and charge it. What if you charge it from panels or wind turbine on the garage roof?

They are already smarting from the new rates of vehicle tax, which is costing them hard, I do not see it being long before they bring in some Tax or another.

This is a whole can of worm in its self. Either you pay the same rate to cook and heat the house, or they load for road use and a huge slice of the advantage of having an electric car is gone.
Australia is having a similar taxation dilemma. Road tax comes mostly from petrol. I can see a shift in taxation policy from fuel excise to actual kilometres driven...
There is talk here in the UK of "road pricing" i.e. paying tolls. Which is, amusingly, a step back about 150 years...
Hmmm, I wonder who paid for the roads to be constructed and maintained anyway?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

AJI
35
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:59 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:33 pm
Energy will, obviously, be from renewable energy. I suppose a solar panel works great in Australia
I didn't mean any offence, but one of my friends has a large 40kW solar array and 200kWh of storage. It'll run the whole farm for days, but it won't charge a tractor...

Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:05 am

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:42 pm
AJI wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm


Australia is having a similar taxation dilemma. Road tax comes mostly from petrol. I can see a shift in taxation policy from fuel excise to actual kilometres driven...
There is talk here in the UK of "road pricing" i.e. paying tolls. Which is, amusingly, a step back about 150 years...
Hmmm, I wonder who paid for the roads to be constructed and maintained anyway?
Before the abolition of toll roads, the people paying the tolls to use the roads.

Since the abolition of toll roads, everyone. Roads have been paid for out of general taxation since Churchill removed "road tax" as the source of funding in 1937.

The problem now, of course, is maintaining the roads and that still requires expenditure and that must, ultimately, come from the tax payer one way or another.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"