Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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roon wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:32 pm
And who makes the best microturbine range-extender for road vehicles to date? F1 teams and their suppliers. Port that thing over. Replace that convoluted ICE with a soda can and some spark plugs. Make a portable genset while yr at it. 40kw in something the size of a traditional 1kw.
yes they should make F1 a microturbine hybrid formula! that would be amazing, from 2024 or something

Edax
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:27 pm
strad wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:13 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:53 pm


What if you live in a block or do not have a drive?
Not sure what you mean but not many places here have a group plug in. Each home has to have it's own hook up to charge the vehicle. And that ain't cheap. :wink:

Many live in blocks or arrangements where they do not have a designated parking spot or are not able to bring the car to a position where it can be plugged in.

You cannot just trail a cable across the footpath or pavement/sidewalk nor drop a flex from the 7th floor.

As 60odd % of the world live in cities, and this will be far higher for car owners, there will be many who just cannot get the car into a position to charge, and this means finding an alternative, which would probably involve a queue and lots of waiting in line.

I am pro electric car, but really do not see how we are going to get around the problem without a paradigm shift in thinking about how long it takes and what we do about it.
It is the opposite here. Inner city people are buying electric cars just to prevent having to park 3 blocks from where they have to be. Combination of a shortage of parking spots, steep parking fines and an abundance of charging spots.

I am lucky enough to have my own driveway, but I have to admit that on my weekend shopping run I am looking envious to the row of ‘electric only’ parking spots in front of the store, while I am waiting for a regular parking spot to free up.

It is that my car still has quite a few good miles left, but I am pretty sure that my next one will be electric.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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roon wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:32 pm
And who makes the best microturbine range-extender for road vehicles to date? F1 teams and their suppliers. Port that thing over. Replace that convoluted ICE with a soda can and some spark plugs. Make a portable genset while yr at it. 40kw in something the size of a traditional 1kw.
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Edax wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:46 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:27 pm
strad wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:13 pm

Not sure what you mean but not many places here have a group plug in. Each home has to have it's own hook up to charge the vehicle. And that ain't cheap. :wink:

Many live in blocks or arrangements where they do not have a designated parking spot or are not able to bring the car to a position where it can be plugged in.

You cannot just trail a cable across the footpath or pavement/sidewalk nor drop a flex from the 7th floor.

As 60odd % of the world live in cities, and this will be far higher for car owners, there will be many who just cannot get the car into a position to charge, and this means finding an alternative, which would probably involve a queue and lots of waiting in line.

I am pro electric car, but really do not see how we are going to get around the problem without a paradigm shift in thinking about how long it takes and what we do about it.
It is the opposite here. Inner city people are buying electric cars just to prevent having to park 3 blocks from where they have to be. Combination of a shortage of parking spots, steep parking fines and an abundance of charging spots.

I am lucky enough to have my own driveway, but I have to admit that on my weekend shopping run I am looking envious to the row of ‘electric only’ parking spots in front of the store, while I am waiting for a regular parking spot to free up.

It is that my car still has quite a few good miles left, but I am pretty sure that my next one will be electric.
Can you leave the car in the space after you are charged? I would expect some sort of rule the car can only be there if charging?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

roon
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm
roon wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:32 pm
And who makes the best microturbine range-extender for road vehicles to date? F1 teams and their suppliers. Port that thing over. Replace that convoluted ICE with a soda can and some spark plugs. Make a portable genset while yr at it. 40kw in something the size of a traditional 1kw.
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?
I should not downplay the turbine engine design, should I? Perhaps the hard part relative to the MGU design. Is there a principal preventing small turbine engines from achieving the efficiency figures of larger ones? Componentry can be downsized.

Edax
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 pm
Edax wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:46 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:27 pm



Many live in blocks or arrangements where they do not have a designated parking spot or are not able to bring the car to a position where it can be plugged in.

You cannot just trail a cable across the footpath or pavement/sidewalk nor drop a flex from the 7th floor.

As 60odd % of the world live in cities, and this will be far higher for car owners, there will be many who just cannot get the car into a position to charge, and this means finding an alternative, which would probably involve a queue and lots of waiting in line.

I am pro electric car, but really do not see how we are going to get around the problem without a paradigm shift in thinking about how long it takes and what we do about it.
It is the opposite here. Inner city people are buying electric cars just to prevent having to park 3 blocks from where they have to be. Combination of a shortage of parking spots, steep parking fines and an abundance of charging spots.

I am lucky enough to have my own driveway, but I have to admit that on my weekend shopping run I am looking envious to the row of ‘electric only’ parking spots in front of the store, while I am waiting for a regular parking spot to free up.

It is that my car still has quite a few good miles left, but I am pretty sure that my next one will be electric.
Can you leave the car in the space after you are charged? I would expect some sort of rule the car can only be there if charging?
Depends on the owner of the parking spot. As far as I understand commercial providers require you to plug in. But the ones that are provided by the municipality to promote electric driving are essentially free parking spots with an option to charge.

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?
wikipedia talks about 20-42% efficiency for microturbines, or 85% with cogeneration (whatever that is). because of the battery they can just leave them spinning at 100k or whatever all the time. They're lighter than piston engines too.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 am
85% with cogeneration (whatever that is).
It usually refers to combined heat and power i.e. the turbine provides electrical energy and the exhaust is used to heat water for heating of buildings. Cogeneration isn't really very useful in vehicles, other than a small bit of cabin heating in winter obviously.

Turbines are noisy and the exhaust plume is hot, both will require weight adding features to combat.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:12 am
It usually refers to combined heat and power i.e. the turbine provides electrical energy and the exhaust is used to heat water for heating of buildings. Cogeneration isn't really very useful in vehicles, other than a small bit of cabin heating in winter obviously.

Turbines are noisy and the exhaust plume is hot, both will require weight adding features to combat.
Ah okay, yes hot water isn't too useful in an F1 car is it. Jaguar Land Rover are looking at it anyway, there must be lots of development potential, especially in cars that are supposed to be noisy

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:12 am
izzy wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 am
85% with cogeneration (whatever that is).
It usually refers to combined heat and power i.e. the turbine provides electrical energy and the exhaust is used to heat water for heating of buildings. Cogeneration isn't really very useful in vehicles, other than a small bit of cabin heating in winter obviously.

Turbines are noisy and the exhaust plume is hot, both will require weight adding features to combat.
They don't have to be, check out Jay Leno's video on the Chrysler turbine car.

The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?
wikipedia talks about 20-42% efficiency for microturbines ....
Wikipedia talks of microturbines of eg c.400 kW not 40 kW
and microturbines with recuperation (heat exchangers) - these don't ever seem to exist as marketed items
4000 kW and particularly 40000 kW turbines are rather efficient of course
40 kW turbines could produce more power from heating water in a steam engine than from their own Brayton cycle efforts

NASA in TN 2003-212615 classifies microturbines as having less than 10 lb thrust
10 lb at 70 mph is roughly 1.5 kW

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izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:36 am
izzy wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?
wikipedia talks about 20-42% efficiency for microturbines ....
Wikipedia talks of microturbines of eg c.400 kW not 40 kW
and microturbines with recuperation (heat exchangers) - these don't ever seem to exist as marketed items
4000 kW and particularly 40000 kW turbines are rather efficient of course
40 kW turbines could produce more power from heating water in a steam engine than from their own Brayton cycle efforts
an f1 car would need about 600kW or something. I'm not seeing a source for your 10%, and apparently Bladon have raised £60m in investment so they must have some idea what they're doing

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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roon wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:58 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm
a 40 kW piston-engine range extender is maybe 35% efficient
a 40 kW gas turbine range extender is maybe 10% efficient ?
....Is there a principal preventing small turbine engines from achieving the efficiency figures of larger ones? Componentry can be downsized.
my Wiki says microturbines are 25 - 500 kW and 15% efficient without a (bulky, heavy) recuperator

the 'principles' of disadvantage seem to be rather strongly proclaimed ...
tip losses and the boundary layer losses are disproportionately large with small size - and short length is a hindrance
ie these don't downsize

and remember the F1 turbine has the 'free power' of exhaust pulse blowdown

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Why turbines and not (hydrogen) Electric? Both have range enough

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Hydrogen has its own problems with storage and explosivity. Oh, and you have to produce it too.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"