Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:01 pm

Covering vast areas with PV is always going to be daunting, but there seems to be an alternative (or addition) on the horizon.
https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/ma ... anels.html

This is PV that replaces windows. In the article there is a bush shelter made from it, it could just as easily be a car port etc.

This is double as it also keeps the inside in shade and would cut down on aircon.

(Again, not the magic bullet, but lots of little bullets still do damage)
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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:48 pm

That´s very interesting, but I´m afraid those will only be worth when prices go down dramatically, as windows receive considerably less radiation than a PV faced to the sun, so their real production will be considerably lower.

But makes you wonder about the future, very interesting indeed

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:09 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:48 pm
That´s very interesting, but I´m afraid those will only be worth when prices go down dramatically, as windows receive considerably less radiation than a PV faced to the sun, so their real production will be considerably lower.

But makes you wonder about the future, very interesting indeed
If it is only ever used on new build it will be a bonus.
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henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:10 pm

Some interesting numbers from @just a fan. The task to go 100% renewable electric does look daunting.

The numbers can be trimmed a bit by considering efficiencies.

Electric cars probably need between 20 and 25 kWh generated power per 100km. That assumes around 90% distribution efficiency and 90% charging efficiency.

ICE cars are much more variable. 5litre/100km (56 mp imp gallon, 45 mp US gallon) is about 50 kWh. I don’t know what the UK fleet average is but I doubt it’s that high.

It seems likely therefore that when calculating additional generating and distribution capacity for EVs the current ICE energy consumption can be divided by at least a factor of 2.

We can also factor in the time of day. If most charging of EVs is done overnight then there is a lot of spare capacity in the distribution grid.

I’m not trying to minimise the task of transitioning to carbon neutral but the scale of the generating/distribution task can be reduced by tackling efficiency as well.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:56 pm

roon wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:23 pm

Of all the motive technologies to quibble over in regards brake dust, perhaps dont pick the one that is capable of regenerative i.e. non-friction braking.
I was merely pointing out that studies have been done that point out a source of "pollution" that is not related to motive power source.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:21 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 am
3.5kW is a small installation
As I said, it's an average installation.
At least in Spain
I have consistently quoted the UK as my point of reference. You have been discussing the issue on that basis until and unless you stated a different reference - which you have now done after several thread pages.

Spain has a different energy mix, a different usage base and a different renewable resource availability.

Perhaps in future you should clarify your frame of reference before expending energy on an argument.

As it happens, the whole world has a massive renewable resource availability. The issue is getting the energy to where it is used. Which goes back, nicely, to my point about grid investment.
Last edited by Just_a_fan on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 pm
Sorry but I don´t like people manipulating my words
Oh, the irony.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am

No, I really do understand the difference between a grid-connected 100m tall turbine and a domestic scale turbine.

In the UK, domestic scale turbines are really not that practical on any meaningful scale. There are a few, but for 99% of UK dwellings, a wind turbine is not an option.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:14 am

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:10 pm
Some interesting numbers from @just a fan. The task to go 100% renewable electric does look daunting.

The numbers can be trimmed a bit by considering efficiencies.
The elephant in the room is reduction of demand - the one thing politicians are terrified of. In order to make zero or near-zero emissions practical, we need to massively reduce energy demand. That requires massive social engineering in terms of reducing journeys - especially work commuting - as a start.

We're wasting our time so long as large percentages of a given population spend several hours a day driving to and from work. If that time includes time spent with engines idling (as is the reality in most traffic queues) then there is a very easy gain to be had from those people not commuting. That requires Govt to get involved in commercial operations i.e. banning companies from having people commute to sit in an office when they could just as effectively work from home.

Starts have been made in reducing energy demand for heating / cooling by improving insulation, but that is not nearly enough.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:11 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:05 am
No, I really do understand the difference between a grid-connected 100m tall turbine and a domestic scale turbine.

In the UK, domestic scale turbines are really not that practical on any meaningful scale. There are a few, but for 99% of UK dwellings, a wind turbine is not an option.
Any reason? It is an option for anyone.

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:13 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:21 pm

As I said, it's an average installation.
At least in Spain
I have consistently quoted the UK as my point of reference. You have been discussing the issue on that basis until and unless you stated a different reference - which you have now done after several thread pages.

Spain has a different energy mix, a different usage base and a different renewable resource availability.

Perhaps in future you should clarify your frame of reference before expending energy on an argument.

As it happens, the whole world has a massive renewable resource availability. The issue is getting the energy to where it is used. Which goes back, nicely, to my point about grid investment.
What???? Now you say???

I´ve stated that repeteadly, and it is on my profile, shown at every single post I do. If you have just noticed it´s your problem, do not acuse me of not being fair or sincere please :roll:

And.... In UK you can sign in less than 3.5kW with an electrical company for your home? Are you sure about this?

rscsr
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by rscsr » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:29 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:13 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:59 pm


At least in Spain
I have consistently quoted the UK as my point of reference. You have been discussing the issue on that basis until and unless you stated a different reference - which you have now done after several thread pages.

Spain has a different energy mix, a different usage base and a different renewable resource availability.

Perhaps in future you should clarify your frame of reference before expending energy on an argument.

As it happens, the whole world has a massive renewable resource availability. The issue is getting the energy to where it is used. Which goes back, nicely, to my point about grid investment.
What???? Now you say???

I´ve stated that repeteadly, and it is on my profile, shown at every single post I do. If you have just noticed it´s your problem, do not acuse me of not being fair or sincere please :roll:

And.... In UK you can sign in less than 3.5kW with an electrical company for your home? Are you sure about this?
afaik at least in Austria you don't have a lower limit on peak power.

rgava
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by rgava » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:33 am

Comparative CO2 Lifecycle comparative analysis eGolf vs. Diesel Golf:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/its-fina ... r-beckman/

I know some of you will say, CO2 is only part of the problem but, INHO it's the biggest problem because it's damaging the whole planet (global warming).

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:41 am

The Tesla shown in the final graph is amazingly high! Shows how the whole "EVs are clean and green" idea is somewhat flawed.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:43 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:14 am
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:10 pm
Some interesting numbers from @just a fan. The task to go 100% renewable electric does look daunting.

The numbers can be trimmed a bit by considering efficiencies.
The elephant in the room is reduction of demand - the one thing politicians are terrified of. In order to make zero or near-zero emissions practical, we need to massively reduce energy demand. That requires massive social engineering in terms of reducing journeys - especially work commuting - as a start.
Nail meet head.

The other part to this issue is timescales. Not only will society need to change a large number of behaviours but every year’s delay will make the changes more difficult and disruptive.

And the problem is enormously complex and gaining complexity as the years roll on. When AVs come, and they are mainly ride hail EVs what difference will that make to energy generation and distribution, government finances, employment?

Societies like slow incremental change taking place in timescales measured in generations. That needs very long term planning. Unfortunately that doesn’t happen when your preferred government system is 5 year elected dictatorships as we have in the U.K.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus