Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:10 pm

Ah thank you.. I have wondered long before this conversation was started. Nice looking ride.
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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by djos » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:20 pm

strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:10 pm
Ah thank you.. I have wondered long before this conversation was started. Nice looking ride.
No worries.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:08 pm

strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:26 pm
I have a question for Andres. I have for a long time wondered what car that is in his avatar. Is it electric? I assume it's some kind of dream car.
honest question.. I cannot make out what it is.
For some of us going for a drive is a form of relaxation. A chance to get away from the pressures of the day.
Also for me Strad. If I defend EVs that does not mean I don´t enjoy driving any ICE car, actually I do enjoy it at least same as you, period, I love driving even before I got my driving licence :wink:

It´s a Hulme, surely far from any current hypercar, but IMO the most beautiful F1 copy for the road, really love the clean design
Image
Image

RZS10
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by RZS10 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Quite similar to the Caparo T1, innit?

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:25 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Quite similar to the Caparo T1, innit?
Yes they are, wich is not a surprise since both are road cars trying to be as similar as possible to a F1 car

strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Was being hones Andres.
I have wondered every time you avatar comes on the screen. It's a nice looking ride.
At first the fenders are kind of odd but I bet I could get used to them.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:04 pm

strad wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:49 pm
Was being hones Andres.
I have wondered every time you avatar comes on the screen. It's a nice looking ride.
At first the fenders are kind of odd but I bet I could get used to them.
Me too strad, we discuss so frequently about EVs and CC I think you must probably think I´m some sort of ICE hater, when that´s not true

I enjoy driving so much I even enjoy driving my Opel Combo 1.7d with just 65hp :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: #-o But I obviously enjoy much more my Pegaso 650 and its nice sound from the monocylinder engine :D

edit, fully agree about the fenders

strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:14 pm

Quite the thumper. In a way it reminds me of my Matchless Typhoon. Big singles can be a bit of a handful.
The only bike to ever throw me over the bars like some cartoon. Had to remember the compression release. :lol:
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
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RZS10
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by RZS10 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:55 pm

https://www.adac.de/verkehr/tanken-kraf ... nz-studie/

google translate:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -studie%2F

short press release:
https://presse.adac.de/meldungen/adac-e ... ilanz.html

translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... ilanz.html

The full study, which was co-sponsored by the FIA and done by the "Forschungsgesellschaft Joanneum Research" will be released later this fall

tl:dr
when it comes to all lifecycle related emissions current EVs aren't any better than modern diesels over 15 years, both are better than petrol, natural gas powered are the best - that with the current german energy mix - their conclusion is that EVs need 'green' electricity to become viable (duh)

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:25 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:55 pm
https://www.adac.de/verkehr/tanken-kraf ... nz-studie/

google translate:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -studie%2F

short press release:
https://presse.adac.de/meldungen/adac-e ... ilanz.html

translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... ilanz.html

The full study, which was co-sponsored by the FIA and done by the "Forschungsgesellschaft Joanneum Research" will be released later this fall

tl:dr
when it comes to all lifecycle related emissions current EVs aren't any better than modern diesels over 15 years, both are better than petrol, natural gas powered are the best - that with the current german energy mix - their conclusion is that EVs need 'green' electricity to become viable (duh)
yes if you burn coal and make CO2 in making the electricity then you're no further forward are you! Obvious really, but easily spun into a story. Tho batteries do have to find a new and better technology before long it's true.

Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:30 pm

From the article, first headline
The main problem is the German power mix with too much coal


As always, no study takes into consideration the energy mix today is different from the energy mix in next years

This chart is self explanatory, you just need a quick look to the increasing yellow area to notice what I mean
Image

Renewables are increasing year by year, actually doubled in last 8 years (more or less), and coal is also being reduced, so those calculations wich didn´t take this into account are not real.

Also, I´ll bet an arm they didn´t consider either petrol and diesel cars emissions do increase with time. It´s very different an brand new ICE to that same engine after 50 or 100k km, with some play on many parts, bearings wich do not spin as smooth as when new, some soot/cinder in the combustion chamber and exhaust, etc.


Even if today EVs would be similar, to me main difference is they will pollute less year by year thanks to a cleaner power production year by year, while ICEs will pollute more year by year due to wear and use.

Not considering this is biased or flawed, and, coincidence or not :roll: , I´ve yet to see one single comparison wich takes this into account

But thanks for the link RZS, it´s interesting

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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:42 pm

There also seems to be an increasing political awareness of the shift to electricity 'generated at home' as opposed to imported oil or oil powered generation. I think politicians are beginning to see the world the way things could well become as opposed to the way they thought or wanted it to become.

Increasing government support is not solely due to the emissions lobby, but with a nod to the 'experts in the back room'
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:59 pm

It points out something I have wondered about.
LNG is clean and much cheaper to convert to.
It does make less power but it is a clean alternative. I have overhauled engines that were run for 100,000 miles on Natural Gas and it was near spotless inside.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

RZS10
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by RZS10 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:48 am

We don't know what they took into account and what they ignored conveniently - projected changes to the energy mix? detoriation of the engines? I guess that even if one would account for those things it would just move the point where an EV makes sense for a diesel from 219k to still far over 100k, and if you already own a new-ish car and have a low yearly mileage it probably won't make any sense for a few more years, essentially until that car stops working...

Will be interesting to read it once it's fully released.

Regarding the increase of emissions with the car's age: the general inspection includes the proper emission test for all cars since 2018, the emissions have to be within a certain tolerance of the initial ones - it used to be an all clear OBD check, now they torture the engine (man it sounds bad when a diesel gets revved to redline :cry: - i thought someone was using a leaf blower outside until i realised it's my poor car) a particulate test is planned for diesels for 2021.
So emissions can't get too bad anyways, otherwise the car won't pass inspection.

@strad why push for those when taxes are lower on LNG and you can't make people buy new cars when they can just install an LNG kit :^)

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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by hollus » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:03 am

RZS10 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:48 am
if you already own a new-ish car and have a low yearly mileage it probably won't make any sense for a few more years, essentially until that car stops working...
I have the feeling that 99% of the people reading this thread would agree with that. The discussion, unless you are a hardcore petrolhead (Coulombhead?) and want to have both, has always been about when it is time to buy a new car, hasn't it?
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.