Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:39 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:27 pm


Well obviously if they were around now they’d be lithium ion. Around 700k tonnes of lithium would do it. Admittedly that’s 20 years production at current rates but who knows what the next 20 years will bring.
I think a long mains lead would be better
For storage?
No for the car. Just keep it plugged in

Sorry, it was a joke reply to the anti matter battery. Forget it please.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

henry
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Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:57 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:39 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 pm


I think a long mains lead would be better
For storage?
No for the car. Just keep it plugged in

Sorry, it was a joke reply to the anti matter battery. Forget it please.
Ok.

We used to have vehicles with long leads when I was young. We called them trolly buses. Along with trams they disappeared because...
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Zynerji » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:02 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:27 pm


Well obviously if they were around now they’d be lithium ion. Around 700k tonnes of lithium would do it. Admittedly that’s 20 years production at current rates but who knows what the next 20 years will bring.
I think a long mains lead would be better
For storage?
More like the electrified bumber cars at your nearest amusement park!!

Image

henry
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Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:22 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:02 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 pm


I think a long mains lead would be better
For storage?
More like the electrified bumber cars at your nearest amusement park!!

http://bestonrides.com/uploadfile/2015/ ... 830426.jpg
Where madder meets anti-madder.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:35 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:57 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:39 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm


For storage?
No for the car. Just keep it plugged in

Sorry, it was a joke reply to the anti matter battery. Forget it please.
Ok.

We used to have vehicles with long leads when I was young. We called them trolly buses. Along with trams they disappeared because...
Well they worked well, so there is something to think about.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Zynerji
61
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Zynerji » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:49 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:22 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:02 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm


For storage?
More like the electrified bumber cars at your nearest amusement park!!

http://bestonrides.com/uploadfile/2015/ ... 830426.jpg
Where madder meets anti-madder.
:lol: :lol: :x

Edax
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Edax » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:44 am

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:57 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:39 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 pm


For storage?
No for the car. Just keep it plugged in

Sorry, it was a joke reply to the anti matter battery. Forget it please.
Ok.

We used to have vehicles with long leads when I was young. We called them trolly buses. Along with trams they disappeared because...
Still alive and kicking.

Image

roon
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by roon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:53 am

Even F1 cars still had pantographs as recently as last year.

Image
Last edited by roon on Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

JonoNic
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by JonoNic » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am

We always think that an EV is limited in range because it has to recharge at a certain point. Our current roads do nothing other than give fossil fuelled vehicles a place to drive on. So make the roads the source of electricity for EV while driving. Like a scalectric without the slot (So the driver can still steer the vehicle when needed). All vehicles will be forced to travel the same speeds but a mgu-k (braking regen) can provide additional power (more speed?) for the more expensive vehicles. If roads have magnetic fields or current to power the cars then they no longer will not need to plug in. Electricity can be generated by solar panels in or next to these roads. We can pay a fee to use these roads and the vehicle runs on a timer. When the timer runs out then the vehicle stops communicating with the road and propulsion stops.

If we start with certain lanes on the highways then gradually build up the infrastructure.

Just is just a mad thought but we should get away from thinking that the vehicle must hold the fuel with its propulsion.
Always find the gap then use it.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Mangalhit » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:46 am

henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:10 pm
On the subject of electricity generating capacity.

Here in the U.K. we use cars and vans to do around 700 billion kilometres/year. That’s 437 billion miles per year or 109 billion/quarter. At 300 Wh per mile that’s 33 terrawatt hours. U.K. generation 2018Q1 was 98 terrawatt hours, that’s if every journey was done by EV. So a 30% increase in capacity is the maximum needed. Given that there is probably spare capacity at night when a lot of charging would be done the extra capacity doesn’t look that daunting.

Also if the vehicles were hooked up at all times when they’re not doing journeys there would be a large reservoir to smooth out renewables. Renewables were 30% of the supply noted above. There are around 36 million cars and vans, (32 and 4). If they averaged 100 kWh batteries that’s 3.6 TWh potential storage.
Great post! My estimates using the total number of cars and assuming they would use 5 batteries charges per week is much worse than getting the estimates for total distance travelled =D> (even tho I hate that you converted it to miles :lol: )

But still more than half the electricity in the UK comes from fossil fuels. If you increase the total by 33% it probably means increasing the fossil fuel burning which makes it a moot point.

If it was possible to increasing the production of "green electricity" in 33 TWh/quarter you still don't need EV cause that could just go to lower the production of fossil fuel electricity thus lowering carbon footprint by a lot without the need to completely refurbish our fleet of vehicles that already exist.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:42 am

but (in the UK anyway) we are committed to reducing our carbon footprint by 80%

about 40% of our carbon was produced by all terrestrial transport and all electricity generation
so we have to decarbonise this 40 %
and then decarbonise the other 60%, which is heating (residential, workspace, and production)

the electricity is the lowest-hanging fruit
but this has given people and government the convenient idea that electricity is the problem for decarbonisation
the problem is all energy not just electrical energy


regarding JonoNic's post
there's been suggestions of eg major roads having induction top-up charging of moving EVs
allowing much smaller batteries

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:43 am

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:46 am
henry wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:10 pm
On the subject of electricity generating capacity.

Here in the U.K. we use cars and vans to do around 700 billion kilometres/year. That’s 437 billion miles per year or 109 billion/quarter. At 300 Wh per mile that’s 33 terrawatt hours. U.K. generation 2018Q1 was 98 terrawatt hours, that’s if every journey was done by EV. So a 30% increase in capacity is the maximum needed. Given that there is probably spare capacity at night when a lot of charging would be done the extra capacity doesn’t look that daunting.

Also if the vehicles were hooked up at all times when they’re not doing journeys there would be a large reservoir to smooth out renewables. Renewables were 30% of the supply noted above. There are around 36 million cars and vans, (32 and 4). If they averaged 100 kWh batteries that’s 3.6 TWh potential storage.
Great post! My estimates using the total number of cars and assuming they would use 5 batteries charges per week is much worse than getting the estimates for total distance travelled =D> (even tho I hate that you converted it to miles :lol: )

But still more than half the electricity in the UK comes from fossil fuels. If you increase the total by 33% it probably means increasing the fossil fuel burning which makes it a moot point.

If it was possible to increasing the production of "green electricity" in 33 TWh/quarter you still don't need EV cause that could just go to lower the production of fossil fuel electricity thus lowering carbon footprint by a lot without the need to completely refurbish our fleet of vehicles that already exist.

But Vehicles would not be using the fossil fuel then so it would still be an overall gain.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:42 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:42 am
but (in the UK anyway) we are committed to reducing our carbon footprint by 80%

about 40% of our carbon was produced by all terrestrial transport and all electricity generation
so we have to decarbonise this 40 %
and then decarbonise the other 60%, which is heating (residential, workspace, and production)

the electricity is the lowest-hanging fruit
but this has given people and government the convenient idea that electricity is the problem for decarbonisation
the problem is all energy not just electrical energy
From your post I understand you think nobody cares about decarbonisation in heating. No idea in UK, but in Spain that´s not true at all, government is subsidizing boilers to replace old oil boilers for many years now.

I´m actually working on one of these, replacing 45 years old oil boilers with new gas-fired boilers. In theory the CO2 emission reduction is around 30%, in practice a lot more as 45 years old boilers efficiency is well below the technical specs. The job is 1.7 million € (500 homes, 10 boilers rooms), 1.4 are funded by the government, with an added help of 70k € for the boilers

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:21 am


The telemetry on this e-kart is quite interesting. Voltage sag is significant.

When I made mine the most impressive part was initial torque, which is frightening. The boring part was as the voltage goes down the kart goes significantly slower. Kind of the opposite to racing and ICE kart.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:20 pm

well it seems to me that the UK may be ahead of Spain in 'decarbonisation' of heating
for reasons including our reduction of 'all energy' CO2 emission by 43% already
NOTE TO SELF - natural gas (methane) firing has 73% of the CO2 of oil firing
and condensing boilers (flues) are more efficient than non-condensing (condensing of course is now available with oil firing)
73% of bad still looks bad (and maybe explains the UK woodburner heating campaign)

my point is further UK decarbonisation (to 80% of 'all energy') means the huge/impossible reduction in housing heat loss
so it's easier for the Govt to make us have EVs (given that people buy new cars anyway)
so 'they' are misrepresenting the benefits of this - to us and of course to themselves
by endlessly pretending that EVs are zero-carbon and by making us feel frightened and guilty