Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:56 pm

It would indeed be important to keep cable lengths as short as possible. Beside that the cables will be thick but copper or aluminum isn't that expensivensive

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:25 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:17 pm
I was thinking similar, wire lengths are going to be noticeable resistance. I like it though.

Something I notice lately is people are rethinking about how things will work. So far it has been re using existing tec, sort of like having a horse on a tread-wheel in the car with you in an early car.
yes they are going to rethink them aren't they. Perhaps 48v can work if the bolt the battery to the motor, or use an aluminium chassis as the conductor. They are very different to drive too, and service and everything, braking... and it's all easier to automate, i love that Tesla Summon 8)

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:40 pm

izzy wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:38 pm
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:54 pm
Nice one!
Here is another promising company called Volabo. They are developing high power output electric motors at 48volts. This is obvious a lot safer than current high voltage systems and it allows them to work with cheaper components. Also their motor doesn't need rare earth metals and as icing on the cake they have developed a continuously phase shifting technology. So they have the benefits of several types of phase motors combined in one giving a greater efficiency.
https://youtu.be/1UBJqDGGRRU
https://volabo.com/
Cool! but 48v must mean a zillion amps and huge fat cables? isn't cabling why F1 runs at 1,000v?
48 Volts is the power territory of established hybrid's ICE architecture/technology ie physically parallel-installed gens or MGs
territory where there's a conventional relationship between power and current
where is Volabo claiming anything different ?

for higher powers no-one is going to replace hundreds of Volts and tens of Amperes with tens of Volts and hundreds of Amps

people here are failing to appreciate that these are not 'on-line' machines (our traditional experience)
they are machines that work by being fed moment-by-moment shaped, sized, and timed pulses custom-made in the moment
afaik the making of said pulses will always be better served by relatively high voltages and relatively low currents
(the same applied to high current brushed DC machines ie it's brushes not conduction issues that reduces efficiency there)

the EM here is like an ICE but the functions of throttles, cams, and valves are remote and connected by cable to the EM
btw even if we call these AC machines the foundation of these functions is internal DC (incl F1 direst mgh/kh or k/h feed)

the driver of this efficient high power/controllability was advances in power electronics FETs etc around 35 years ago
the parallel advance in magnet material eg rare earth magnets is less important and somewhat dispensable

there's nothing new about reluctance motors - aren't Tesla now using one of the various possible types ?
there's nothing new about patents for commercial manoeuvre and benefit
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:55 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:40 pm
izzy wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:38 pm
Cool! but 48v must mean a zillion amps and huge fat cables? isn't cabling why F1 runs at 1,000v?
48 Volts is the power territory of established hybrid's ICE architecture/technology ie via belt-driven generators
territory where there's a conventional relationship between power and current
where is Volabo claiming anything different ?

for higher powers no-one is going to replace hundreds of Volts and tens of Amperes with tens of Volts and hundreds of Amps

people here are failing to appreciate that these are not 'on-line' machines (our traditional experience)
they are machines that work by being fed moment-by-moment shaped, sized, and timed pulses custom-made in the moment
afaik the making of said pulses will always be better served by relatively high voltages and relatively low currents
(the same applied to high current brushed DC machines ie it's brushes not conduction issues that reduces efficiency there)

the EM here is like an ICE but the functions of throttles, cams, and valves are remote and connected by cable to the EM
btw even if we call these AC machines the basis of these functions is internal DC

the driver of this efficient high power/controllability was advances in power electronics FETs etc around 35 years ago
the parallel advance in magnet material eg rare earth magnets is less important and somewhat dispensable

there's nothing new about reluctance motors - aren't Tesla now using one of the various possible types ?
there's nothing new about patents for commercial manoeuvre and benefit
well a Renault Zoe battery puts out 345V, so where does a 48V 'high power' motor fit in, in the EV world? is my question. presumably it does obviously. but my elementary physics says if they want 100kW of power for the car at only 48v that'd be 2,000 Amps!

or if they keep it down to say 100A like a house that's only 4.8kW, which isn't high power and even for a hybrid isn't much use

FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by FW17 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:34 am

Why are range extenders not popular?

A typical ev like a model 3 or Zoe cruises at 15kw/hr. Cant a range extender be directly coupled to as a power source to the motors rather than batteries when cruising, while keeping the batteries for start and sudden power requirements?

Cant 15kw be provided by a small generator unit running at modest rpm and high efficiency?

Image

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:02 am

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:34 am
Why are range extenders not popular?
Range extenders are a logical step for EV's while we wait for battery tech and charging infrastructure to improve. The jump straight to full BEV from ICE ASAP is overreach, IMO...

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:49 am

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:34 am
Why are range extenders not popular?

A typical ev like a model 3 or Zoe cruises at 15kw/hr. Cant a range extender be directly coupled to as a power source to the motors rather than batteries when cruising, while keeping the batteries for start and sudden power requirements?

Cant 15kw be provided by a small generator unit running at modest rpm and high efficiency?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... dserie.png
The i3 had one and they dropped it, for less weight and more range. Tho you'd cruise on the battery and have the petrol motor just as a backup, is the concept

I think in practice it's that people don't travel as far as they think, mostly, so for all the anxiety range isn't actually much of an issue. If you do really long journeys you just don't get an EV, yet

FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by FW17 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:58 am

izzy wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:49 am
FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:34 am
Why are range extenders not popular?

A typical ev like a model 3 or Zoe cruises at 15kw/hr. Cant a range extender be directly coupled to as a power source to the motors rather than batteries when cruising, while keeping the batteries for start and sudden power requirements?

Cant 15kw be provided by a small generator unit running at modest rpm and high efficiency?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... dserie.png
The i3 had one and they dropped it, for less weight and more range. Tho you'd cruise on the battery and have the petrol motor just as a backup, is the concept

I think in practice it's that people don't travel as far as they think, mostly, so for all the anxiety range isn't actually much of an issue. If you do really long journeys you just don't get an EV, yet
I would say that BEV should be limited to 100 - 150 mile range for passenger cars, while regulators concentrate efforts to bringing all commercial vehicles to the BEV platform.

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Greg Locock » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:03 am

My personal (I have never seen an EV charging bay except at work) perfect EV at the moment would be the GM Volt, which more or less matches your horribly complex (clue) block diagram.

It is a very expensive cure for range anxiety. Basically you have 1.75 powertrains to package, so interior space suffers. hence the Volt is 4 seater and the Cruze is a 5 seater.

However I'd really like to see a diesel PHEV based on Prius, it wouldn't meet Toyota's goals for inconspicuousness, but I bet they could get that to 65 mpg or more.

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:27 pm

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:58 am
I would say that BEV should be limited to 100 - 150 mile range for passenger cars, while regulators concentrate efforts to bringing all commercial vehicles to the BEV platform.
why would you limit car range? they have to develop EV's generally, to get enough range for commercial vehicles to be delivering or whatever all day. Cars are what give scale - vital ingredient!

regulators just need to not mess it up by interfering. Their problem is how to replace the tax from petrol without slowing it all down

FW17
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by FW17 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:41 pm

The average british driver drives 32 miles a day, why have cars with battery packs so large?

What is the point of chasing a 300 mile range when the average usage is about a 10th of that?

Batteries are a limited in supply, needed for the entire world, why should they be installed for no purpous ? It is better used in commercial vehicles (cabs, vans, buses and lorries) that predominently run on diesel

izzy
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by izzy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:28 pm

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:41 pm
The average british driver drives 32 miles a day, why have cars with battery packs so large?

What is the point of chasing a 300 mile range when the average usage is about a 10th of that?

Batteries are a limited in supply, needed for the entire world, why should they be installed for no purpous ? It is better used in commercial vehicles (cabs, vans, buses and lorries) that predominently run on diesel
I see what you mean but you can't design to the average. Average means half the journeys are longer (or more, depending on the distribution), and it doesn't tell you the longest journey people want to allow for, which is a different thing altogether

we had an i3 for a couple of days. when we went to charge it at a services one charging station was broken and the other was filled with an ICE parked there. While you can't depend on the infrastructure then you want lots of spare range. It's a lot worse than running out of petrol and everyone's afraid of being stranded. Hence range anxiety, and EV makers have to make allowances for that in order to build the scale

It'll get fixed in time on its own, as nobody wants weight and cost for no benefit, and commercial vehicles will catch up as soon as it makes commercial sense

Tim.Wright
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Tim.Wright » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:08 pm

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:41 pm
The average british driver drives 32 miles a day, why have cars with battery packs so large?
Same reason nobody builds a car with a 4L fuel tank.
Not the engineer at Force India

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:00 pm

Its probably not just the days miles in mind, but things like the phone call late at night with relative taken ill or kids taxi not at airport etc. Things you like to have available only if for emergency and never used.

You have a 100 mile range and return home having done 80 miles, then a relative phones having been taken into hospital 150 miles away, can you bring his wife to see him, or was with him and needs to come home. Having to wait 4 hr and stop on en rout both ways is not a pleasant prospect
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3jawchuck
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by 3jawchuck » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:02 pm

Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:08 pm
FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:41 pm
The average british driver drives 32 miles a day, why have cars with battery packs so large?
Same reason nobody builds a car with a 4L fuel tank.
Fuel tanks don't weigh as much as unused batteries though. Not that I think a small capacity electric vehicle will be viable for enough people to justify it,
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