Tata's U$2500 car

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manchild
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Some (not all) "very well presented" viewpoints. :roll:
Crap, crap, crap
.
I ask why, why, why and some can't explain.

Where's the end of the "the crumple zone" for cars like Twingo, Lupo, Fox, FIAT Cinquecento, Seicento, C2, 107? Each of them costs 5 times more than Nano.
i'd prefer to stick to one that costs £9000 and made out of metal

Nano wasn't made for you who can afford to buy car for £9000 but for those who could up till now by only this:

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For them and for other poor people Nano is revelation.

Nano should be analyzed as a successor of rickshaws and in that way it is a great step forward especially including safety:

Image

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Last edited by manchild on 19 Jan 2008, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.

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HKS
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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JonoF1 wrote:I challenge you to get to 70mph (if it goes that fast), then crash it....and still be alive. It may be $2500 but i'd prefer to stick to one that costs £9000 and made out of metal! The crumple zone for the Tata car ends by the back axle.

Nano is meant to replace 2 wheelers and not 9,000-10,000 pound cars.

But according to me, if this car is good, then it would even replace the 9000-10,000 cars also.

I won't be suprised if Nano takes the place of Beetle in this modern era and I would be happy too. Not just for Tata and India but even for myelf. (I hold a few Tata Motor shares too) :D :D :D :lol: :lol:
Racing cars are neither beautiful nor ugly, they are beautiful only when you win races.

sebbe
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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"I've already altered the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" -Darth Vader to Lando Calrissian. The Empire Strikes Back.
"Progress is not always made by reasonable men." (McLaren Racing).
"We have optimised the lateral optical interface of the building." (Translation: "My factory has a lot of windows.") Ron Dennis.-

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Sorry for reviving this thread, here is a picture I "bumped" into today:

Structural damage after hitting a wall at 40 mph. Mini on the left, Ford F-150 on the right
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It's evident that the Mini cabin on the left has taken better the impact and offers better "survivability" or whatever you call it.

This is NOT what you get when a Ford F150 crashes into a Mini, but what happens when both cars hit a stationary object, which are two very different propositions.

On the first event, that is, both cars crashing into each other, the Mini adsorbs more energy and the relative stiffness of the parts of both cars goes against the Mini.

On the second event, hitting an stationary object, the extra-weight of the Ford plays against it. Notice that this extra weight is what makes you feel safer, in the first place, when you buy an SUV.

Heaven helps you if all this chassis you bought for your safety suddenly hits you in the back.

The difference you see between both designs, then, is in part due to the effect that makes a beetle to survive a fall while you might not make it.

Even taking that into account, I bet that, also in part, there is a difference in the "crash efficiency" of both designs.

It makes me think that, even if the Nano has a really short nose, Mr. Tata could be remembered in a better way if he has taken a look at how the Mini was built.

Anyway, there are ways of getting people's money. If you pay attention to this article from the New Yorker, not all are as satisfying as they could be, and perhaps you don't get what you think you get when you pay more for your car:
Ford executives decided to build a luxury version of the Expedition, the Lincoln Navigator. They bolted a new grille on the Expedition, changed a few body panels, added some sound insulation, took a deep breath, and charged forty-five thousand dollars—and soon Navigators were flying out the door nearly as fast as Expeditions. Before long, the Michigan Truck Plant was the most profitable of Ford's fifty-three assembly plants. By the late nineteen-nineties, it had become the most profitable factory of any industry in the world. In 1998, the Michigan Truck Plant grossed eleven billion dollars, almost as much as McDonald's made that year. Profits were $3. 7 billion. Some factory workers, with overtime, were making two hundred thousand dollars a year. The demand for Expeditions and Navigators was so insatiable that even when a blizzard hit the Detroit region in January of 1999—burying the city in snow, paralyzing the airport, and stranding hundreds of cars on the freeway—Ford officials got on their radios and commandeered parts bound for other factories so that the Michigan Truck Plant assembly line wouldn't slow for a moment. The factory that had begun as just another assembly plant had become the company's crown jewel.
Big and Bad
Ciro

Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Ciro Pabón wrote:On the second event, hitting an stationary object, the extra-weight of the Ford plays against it. Notice that this extra weight is what makes you feel safer, in the first place, when you buy an SUV.
100% TRUE

This is the way to go:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/tech ... loss-tips/

Can somebody here tell me how many fatal accidents there are in Go-Karts per year in the world? Remember a Go-Kart can reach easily more than 80mph.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

manchild
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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FRANKFURT: TATA Motors plans to introduce its ultra-cheap Nano car to the European market in four years, the head of compact car projects at Tata Motors told German magazine Focus. “We will develop a successor model in four years, which will meet the Euro 5 emission regulations and the crash standards in Europe,” Girish Wagh was quoted as saying by Focus in an advance abstract on Sunday.

The main target was to reduce the car’s fuel consumption to three from currently five litres per 100 kilometres, Wagh told the magazine.

Tata Motors unveiled the $2,500 Nano, the world’s cheapest car, in January and said the new four-seater would roll out later in the year from its factory in West Bengal.

Tata has said it will initially produce about 2,50,000 Nanos and expects eventual annual demand of 1 million units.

Tata has said it would focus on the home market for two to three years before considering exporting the Nano to countries in Africa, Latin America and Southeast Asia.

Global car makers, initially sceptical that Tata could produce such a low-cost car, are now scurrying to make their own versions to meet the needs of cost-conscious consumers in emerging economies such as China, India and Russia.

Giblet
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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I'm gonna get one for each foot.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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GTO
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Joined: 09 Jun 2005, 01:16
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Way to go Tata! =D>
I hope this Nano car gives a licking to Ford other cheap, car makers that were over-priced beer cans in the first place. Now, we'll see them copying Tata's idea & start lowering their prices & produce cost effective cars for consumers.
:D

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Tom
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7243247.stm

This might just catch on, depends how efficient they can make it.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

manchild
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Problem is in air tanks. If they are made of steel that adds to much weight to the car. They can be replaced with CF tanks but that makes car much more expensive and in Nano's case I guess that a CF tank would easily double original price of car (1700 euros).

:idea:

Problem could be solved in a way that air compressor stations rent their own easily replaceable CF tanks. They could charge some fee that would cover the costs of CF tanks as time goes buy (especially having in mind that they are virtually indestructible). So, Nano owner wouldn't have to buy tank together with the car but rent one.

Example: You go to Tata dealer shop, buy Nano with filled CF tank in it, use it until air runs out, go to air compressor station, take empty tank out, shove full one in, pay a fee and drive on.

The only precaution to make this possible would be some special irremovable rig built in CF tank so that no one can recharge it elsewhere without paying fee to company that rents CF tanks.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Tom wrote:This might just catch on, depends how efficient they can make it.
Saw that one

too and gave serious thought about posting something about it here, but in the end decided to wait whether it'd surface or not. Sure it works, but what it really does boil down to is efficiency, as you state. That, and where the energy for the air compression comes from. Furthermore, my latent scepticism about these efforts (accumulated over decades of promises of imminent commercialisation) isn't alleviated much by Tata's investment - it need not be great and given the projected low cost (not too much above Nano, potentially) they might be wise to get involved "just in case".

As always, reporting is predominantly very superficial, even the BBC article mentions "no emissions at all" in its article - that, of course, would depend on the method of compression and where that energy comes from. The statement about power generation is just plain misleading considering whole energy cycles. There's a mention of a fuel burner being involved in long journeys, which to me speaks of thermodynamic dilemmas remaining in the operating principle. Tata has its work cut out if they intend to really achieve truly fuel independent compressed air propulsion that actually makes sense.

I also watched a "Beyond Tomorrow" feature on the Air Car on YouTube. It was depressingly rife with factual errors starting with the statement that aluminium cannot be used for conventional ICEs because of the "low melting point". Seemingly each and every website with "eco" or "green" in their addresses is content to repeat the hype about the Air Car, with very few exceptions. Fact is that single-stage compression just doesn't cut it efficiency-wise ... this is not to say that I'd know what the exact operating principle of the Air Car is. That information isn't easily available.

This need not be a hoax, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm just saying I'd be very interested to see just how clever the thermodynamical management of the current (still prototypical) engine is, not to mention compressor efficiency, mechanical and parasitic losses involved and so on. Right now I'm less than impressed about the potential (let alone real) range of the vehicle (consider loading the vehicles with cargo) but more optimistic about potential benefits to inner city air quality.

Tom, I know you're interested in hybrid solutions, so I think it could be worth your while to read Thermodynamic Analysis of Compressed Air Vehicle Propulsion by Ulf Bossel for the European Fuel Cell Forum, 2005. Start from the abstract and conclusions and continue from there if it seems interesting. It's possibly the most level headed and optimistic appraisal on this subject I've come across thus far.

Edit: Manchild, I understand only CF air tanks are being suggested. They're advertised to be safer in case of impact, albeit the weight issue is also obvious.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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This should satisfy out technical craving. I had seen an article about this a while ago, wondered if it would be of interest did some research and got side tracked on balloon animal technique. I'm sure you can all understand how that might happen -- well -- the subject seemed similar at the time; and I am easily distracted :wink:

"Powered by a two-cylinder, compressed-air engine. The basic concept behind the engine is unique; it can run either on compressed air alone or act as an internal combustion engine. Compressed air is stored in carbon or glass fiber tanks at a pressure of 4,351 pounds per square inch (psi). This air is fed through an air injector to the engine and flows into a small chamber, which expands the air. The air pushing down on the pistons moves the crankshaft, which gives the vehicle power."

"Zero Pollution Motors is also working on a hybrid version of their engine that can run on traditional fuel in combination with air. The change of energy source is controlled electronically. When the car is moving at speeds below 60 kph, it runs on air. At higher speeds, it runs on a fuel, such as gasoline, diesel or natural gas."

:D No I didn't write that -- I'm enjoying a Mars Bar and couldn't type -- it's a cut and paste :D

:wink: From How Things Work -- which I'm neglecting to do :wink:

This look's to be from the same people working with Tata.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car.htm

An American company, The Air Car, led by a Terry Miller has also been working on pneumatic drive vehicles since about 2000.
http://www.theaircar.com/acf/air-cars/air-cars.html

The Air Car Company offers a history of The Compressed Air Vehicle. Trams and trollies. Of course the French were pioneers back about 200 years ago with this. Many forget that France, was one of the Industrial Revolutions technological leaders. Well -- I have not.

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/air-cars/c ... story.html

The French Physicist Denis Papin did the heavy lifting on all this about 1687
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Papin


The Moderm Tata Air Motor
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A Blue Print of a Somewhat Older Version of the Air Motor
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A French Trolly Equipped With an Air Motor
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Pittsburg Had a Fleet of Several Hundred Air Motor Trollies
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Old Air Cars
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The Current Air Motor Micro Van
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Considering the past and present -- this technology may have a future.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Tata's U$2500 car

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Giblet wrote:I'm gonna get one for each foot.
:lol:
Ciro

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HKS
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sebbe wrote:
manchild wrote:Will TATA become new Henry Ford is yet to be seen. Modern US industry that makes 2-3 tonne heavy cars with multi liter inefficient engines, driven by one person from home to work and back certainly is not closer Ford's vision.
Please, let's not be so naïve... all of them are out there reaching for our money...

ALL OF THEM
I'm in complete disagreement with you. Tata's has always thought for the betterment of Indians.
Racing cars are neither beautiful nor ugly, they are beautiful only when you win races.

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HKS
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sebbe wrote:
manchild wrote:
I need help understanding this post.

Who reaches for whose money, who are "we". Who are "all of them"? Car manufacturers, Indians, Americans, Extraterrestrials?

I really don't get it. You sound as a major share holder or CEO of rival company that is scared by Nano's possible success.
Ok, ok, I've gone way out of order...

In my not so humble opinion, Tata Nano is a piece of crap (from the mecanical and technical point of view) -Full stop.

Tata cannot be compared with H Ford, because even when both of them wanted to make a profit at least Ford implemented mass production; Tata won't do anything somebody hasn't done already -Full Stop.

I wish I was a CEO of a car manufacturer. If I were, I wouldn't be scared at Tata Nano -Full Stop.

Tata Nano won't be a success in Europe, South America nor in USA -Full Stop.

Isn't Tata Nano going to be produced here in Argentina? (Belatti please help me with this).
That was a very rude reply. [-X
You call NAno a piece of crap. That's the reason why no company in the world could have developed such an amzing car at such a cheap cost.
You don't know the history, geography of Tata's and you comment like that on them? Tata has always been helpful to the Indian people. What Tata has done even your Henry Ford won't have done. Tata's have given up their airline company and Power station to the Indian governamnt at a very cheap rate. (Nothing like they were facing losses).
If you were a CEO of any car manufacturing firm you won't be worried? Well surely that's the reason why Tata is the only company who has been successful in making a $2500 car and wasn't it the main attraction of the Geneva Motor show?
Talking about the sale of Nano in Europe and America? Its made for the Indian market. Tata would have such a huge market for Nano in Indian itself that it doesn't need to step out of India.

If I was rude, I have no regrets.
Racing cars are neither beautiful nor ugly, they are beautiful only when you win races.