Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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mclaren777
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by mclaren777 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:26 pm

I noticed it in Q3 when he was being rolled into the garage. It was on the right side of the car.

Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Owen.C93 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:12 pm

mclaren777 wrote:I noticed it in Q3 when he was being rolled into the garage. It was on the right side of the car.
That was brake cooling fans and a heat resistant pad to protect mechanics from the hot exhausts.
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gray41
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by gray41 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:39 am

Anyone noticed any updates so far this weekend?
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Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Owen.C93 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:58 pm

Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)

speedsense
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by speedsense » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:01 am

Owen.C93 wrote:
finishline wrote:
Almost certainly covering a wire running from a sensor.
If it's a wire then they have one on each side of the wing. Could they be testing different leading edges, with the tape covering a temporary joint?
They've ran these wires at every test session and FP. I think they're pressure sensors.
I don't think they are pressure sensors. If you zoom up very large, you can see the left one (from my view) is a twisted pair that connects to "rib" 1/4 across the wing. Goes from flat wiring (outside end plate) to round twisted pair under the wing.

What is interesting is the right one, it stays as a flat piece and disappears inside of what appears to be a slot all the way across the front of the wing? The right one does not attach to the "rib" like the left one. Could be the picture quality, but it certainly appears that way... if it was a pressure sensors the left one would be a tube, yet you can see the silhouette of the wires inside. IMHO
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Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Owen.C93 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:31 am

What else could it be? They run the across the rear wing and top of the diffuser during testing.
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Jef Patat
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Jef Patat » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:44 am

@ speedsense
I don't see what you see :?
speedsense wrote: Goes from flat wiring (outside end plate) to round twisted pair under the wing.
Wiring won't go from one type to another, that's just not done. Unless you mean there are several cables under the tape, but then it doesn't matter if they're twisted.
speedsense wrote: What is interesting is the right one, it stays as a flat piece and disappears inside of what appears to be a slot all the way across the front of the wing? The right one does not attach to the "rib" like the left one. Could be the picture quality, but it certainly appears that way...
Where do you see that?
speedsense wrote: if it was a pressure sensors the left one would be a tube, yet you can see the silhouette of the wires inside. IMHO
Why should a pressure sensor have tubes? It can be just a very small piezo.

fiohaa
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by fiohaa » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:21 pm

this is an extract from mark hughes article off sky:

'So why was this much less of a problem for him in the earlier races? Jenson and McLaren would probably love to know the answer to that too. But there is at least one key rival convinced it has something to do with an FIA clarification made during the Chinese Grand Prix weekend regarding the McLaren's splitter aft of the nose.

It's believed McLaren was taking advantage of the production tolerance allowed for the floor - which has to be flat but which is allowed a few millimetres tolerance - by considering the splitter as part of the floor. The clarification put a stop to this. McLaren insists this had no serious impact upon the car's aerodynamic performance, but others are less sure. Could it have allowed just enough rake on the car for even Jenson to get the front tyres up to temperature? It's only a theory. But at the time of writing, theories were all even Button and the team had.'

can someone please explain this technically...with some pictures or something. Im sure its been written about here before, but probably not in the context of Button troubles.
thanks

speedsense
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by speedsense » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:16 am

Jef Patat wrote:@ speedsense
I don't see what you see :?
Image
the twisted pair is the bright line under the wing
Image
This side doesn't have the twisted pair harness, and appears to go into the front of wing.
speedsense wrote: Goes from flat wiring (outside end plate) to round twisted pair under the wing.
Wiring won't go from one type to another, that's just not done. Unless you mean there are several cables under the tape, but then it doesn't matter if they're twisted.
I have done this very thing a few times when the required route was across body work or wings, it's quite simple really, remove a chunk of insulation, spread the wires out side by side, re-enclose with some medium to hold the wiring, tape to the surface. It's used more often than you may think. Many instances on race cars require custom wiring, especially on the outside of a car. BTW, if you do this on carbon fiber, it needs to be insulated from the carbon as it's a conductor.
speedsense wrote: What is interesting is the right one, it stays as a flat piece and disappears inside of what appears to be a slot all the way across the front of the wing? The right one does not attach to the "rib" like the left one. Could be the picture quality, but it certainly appears that way...
Where do you see that?
The cropped pictures above may need to be zoomed as far as you can go


Why should a pressure sensor have tubes? It can be just a very small piezo.
Having been doing data on race cars for 21 years, I've yet to use a piezo for measurement @ the sensing location. Most pressure sensors on body work and such are sensors that use two tubes running out from the sensor, one to a static pressure (a bottle of water for instance), one to the sensing location. The location could be a pitot or a hole with a small "port" to attach the tube to take the pressure reading.
The wire is connected to the "rib" on the right side and my best guess is a strain gauge reading of some sort. The right one, I have no idea. Like I said, it could be the picture angle and quality but it disappears into the wing....
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scarbs
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by scarbs » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:17 am

fiohaa wrote:this is an extract from mark hughes article off sky:

It's believed McLaren was taking advantage of the production tolerance allowed for the floor - which has to be flat but which is allowed a few millimetres tolerance - by considering the splitter as part of the floor. The clarification put a stop to this. McLaren insists this had no serious impact upon the car's aerodynamic performance, but others are less sure. Could it have allowed just enough rake on the car for even Jenson to get the front tyres up to temperature? It's only a theory. But at the time of writing, theories were all even Button and the team had.'

From what I understand of Marks article is the T-Tray splitter was an issue.

The entire floor of the car is supposed to be flat. However the rules allow a small tolerance, under the guise of a manufacturing tolerance, so the floor may be higher at one point compared to another. This tolerance used to be 5mm and was reduced to 3mm this year. give the teams a chance to exploit a tolerance and they will take it. I presume from Marks comment that the splitter on the McLaren was tilted up by 3mm at the leading edge. Thus the splitter would allow more rake for a slightly lower front ride height, allowing a better front wing position.

As far as the electronic trickery, this assume is some form of system to regain the loss of their fired overrun. Mercedes engines have used the fired overrun to balance the rear of the car when KERS is harvesting since 2009. This gained even more importance in 2011 when EBDs needed off throttle blowing. This year McLaren are still blowing the diffuser area and still are using KERS, so balancing the rear on corner entry is going to be tricky. We all know Button likes a stable rear end to get the confidence to go fast. Presumably the system is trying, but failing to do that.

Jef Patat
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Jef Patat » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:01 pm

@ speedsense

1. You cannot tell if I cable is twisted pair or not from the outside, you can't even tell if there is more than one wire in a cable and on that pic you can't even tell it's a cable (my opinion)
2. Twisted pair is used for a reason, i.e. to suppress noise by using differential signal monitoring, going from twisted to untwisted takes away that very property making it very unwise to do so, unless you didn't need the twisting in the first place.
3. I think in F1 they use pressure sensors without bottles of water and tubes, a simple example are tire sensors

speedsense
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by speedsense » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Jef Patat wrote:@ speedsense

1. You cannot tell if I cable is twisted pair or not from the outside, you can't even tell if there is more than one wire in a cable and on that pic you can't even tell it's a cable (my opinion)
2. Twisted pair is used for a reason, i.e. to suppress noise by using differential signal monitoring, going from twisted to untwisted takes away that very property making it very unwise to do so, unless you didn't need the twisting in the first place.
3. I think in F1 they use pressure sensors without bottles of water and tubes, a simple example are tire sensors
They still need static pressure differential, I only used water as an example of a closed area unaffected by air pressure. Tire press. sensors measure pounds/kilos by the air press directly affecting a strain gauged diaphragm. Air pressure sensors measure inches of water..big difference in size of the diaphragm. Air pressure sensors are so sensitive they have to be shock mounted to prevent noise from vibration. F1 certainly uses tubes out to sensing locations.
The bulk of a tire sensor or an air pressure sensor for that matter makes it pretty much impossible to put at the sensing point...IE turbulence caused by the sensor it's self.

point two.... on the outside of a wing end plate or body work for that matter, RF noise is so small that interference from it almost isn't measurable.
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Nando
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by Nando » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:37 am

gray41 wrote:Anyone noticed any updates so far this weekend?
They had a Canada specific rear suspension there, Button did not ran it, neither did he ran the electronic gizmo they have been rumored to have.

As far as the suspension goes it had less anti-squat then normally which according to the link would provide more grip at the expense of control and a slight aerodynamic disadvantage due to the ride height not staying as optimal.

But apart from that, i can´t see much new, perhaps a front and rear wing maybe.

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strad
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by strad » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:42 am

Have we discussed this brake heat to the tires adjustment screw? I didn't see any.
What are they on about? Do we know?
I left in the part about the floor for clarification of the flex discussion.
McLaren is the inventor of a clever system that is helping Lewis Hamilton at the front of the F1 field at present.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport, with the collaboration of renowned F1 technical illustrator Giorgio Piola, said the British team is using a system that controls the flow of heat from the brakes into the difficult-to-manage Pirelli tyres. So in a season in which a degree or two in temperature can bring a tyre in or out of Pirelli’s tiny ‘window’ of performance, the McLaren trick is “ingenious”, German journalist Tobias Gruner explained.

The team’s mechanics adjust the rear braking system in the pits with a screwdriver, the screw being located near the driver cockpit opening.

But it has not been all good news for McLaren, whose Jenson Button is suffering arguably the grimmest period in his entire F1 career at present. It might have something to do with the FIA’s recent clampdown on the MP4-27′s floor.

Reportedly after the Chinese grand prix, the governing body ruled that the British team had stepped over the line with its interpretation of the rules regarding flexibility. Scratches had been found underneath the extremes of the front wings, to which McLaren argued that the floor bending was within the allowed tolerances.

“The tolerance is there to account for manufacturing defects,” Charlie Whiting is quoted as saying, after ruling that McLaren’s system deliberately exploited those tolerances.


Auto Motor und Sport said: “The seemingly minor change had major implications for McLaren.”
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

Post by raymondu999 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 am

Yes - Scarbs discovered it last month.
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