Team: Adrian Newey (CTO), Petr Prodromou (CA), Rob Marshall (CD), Christian Horner (TP) Drivers: Sebastian Vettel (1), Mark Webber (2), Sebastian Buemi (reserve)
A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Blaze1 wrote:I had a look at the iPlayer race highlights and also noticed on lap 69 around the 1:26.00+ mark on the player, that you can see the front splitter on Sebastian's RBR car deflecting, not only tilting and perhaps moving up and down as a whole unit, but also tilting from side to side as if attached to a ball joint. This allow it to follow the contours of the circuit and bumps more precisely and certainly gives the impression that the front splitter is floating over the circuit undulations.
I'm one of Red Bull's harshest critics when it comes to their approach to the technical rules, but I have to say that I couldn't really see anything in that video. The quality isn't exactly great so I may try and find another source, but with the video encoding artifacts and heat haze it's very difficult to tell what was going down there.
bhallg2k wrote:One would think that if the splitter has enough contact with the ground to hinder top speed and require additional cooling for friction that the plank would likely lose through wear more than the maximum 1mm allowed during a race. That's not to say that there isn't anything "tricky" going on with RB8's tea tray, but I think the car's lack of top speed is simply a reflection of the downforce it makes, because downforce always equals drag. Such a trade-off is easy to make with class-leading downforce levels that don't put the car at an especially significant disadvantage in terms of top speed.
I just watched the Ferrari Racing News video, done for/after the Canadian GP here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO4fxKad ... e=youtu.be From 14:55 one of the engineers discusses ride hide. The main issues he talks about that hinder them from running too low, is the driver complaining of vision problems due to bottoming and excessive heat.
bhallg2k wrote:One would think that if the splitter has enough contact with the ground to hinder top speed and require additional cooling for friction that the plank would likely lose through wear more than the maximum 1mm allowed during a race. That's not to say that there isn't anything "tricky" going on with RB8's tea tray, but I think the car's lack of top speed is simply a reflection of the downforce it makes, because downforce always equals drag. Such a trade-off is easy to make with class-leading downforce levels that don't put the car at an especially significant disadvantage in terms of top speed.
Is this correct? I thought floor/diffuser downforce is for free and also can reduce drag.
Maybe the car is just not very efficient. In the aero/downforce-part of Barcelona it was not the fastest.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.
Blaze1 wrote:I had a look at the iPlayer race highlights and also noticed on lap 69 around the 1:26.00+ mark on the player, that you can see the front splitter on Sebastian's RBR car deflecting, not only tilting and perhaps moving up and down as a whole unit, but also tilting from side to side as if attached to a ball joint. This allow it to follow the contours of the circuit and bumps more precisely and certainly gives the impression that the front splitter is floating over the circuit undulations.
I'm one of Red Bull's harshest critics when it comes to their approach to the technical rules, but I have to say that I couldn't really see anything in that video. The quality isn't exactly great so I may try and find another source, but with the video encoding artifacts and heat haze it's very difficult to tell what was going down there.
I have managed to create some screen grabs of the splitter at those points, that I'll put up.
bhallg2k wrote:One would think that if the splitter has enough contact with the ground to hinder top speed and require additional cooling for friction that the plank would likely lose through wear more than the maximum 1mm allowed during a race. That's not to say that there isn't anything "tricky" going on with RB8's tea tray, but I think the car's lack of top speed is simply a reflection of the downforce it makes, because downforce always equals drag. Such a trade-off is easy to make with class-leading downforce levels that don't put the car at an especially significant disadvantage in terms of top speed.
Is this correct? I thought floor/diffuser downforce is for free and also can reduce drag.
Maybe the car is just not very efficient. In the aero/downforce-part of Barcelona it was not the fastest.
But last year the RB7 never made much of an impression on the top speed chart and the car was producing bags of down-force, even with a relatively small rear wing, so one assumes it was being generated by the under-body which is more efficient.
I actually never considered the jarring action of bottoming out on a driver's vision, but it makes sense. With regard to heat, it's definitely a factor. In the Sauber "split car" video, Perez rather sheepishly admits that his ass gets a bit toasty during a race. But, Sauber haven't done anything extraordinary to mitigate that heat. So, one can assume that it's to be expected. If, on the other hand, the RB8 is generating enough friction with the tea-tray to actually slow the car and necessitate additional cooling, I'm pretty sure the plank would then be worn away more than is allowed.
@ FrukostScones (What does that mean anyway?)
Downforce always equals drag, no matter what. Some methods for generating downforce inflict lighter drag penalties than others, such as ground-effect, but the penalty is always there. The RB8 generates so much downforce through every available medium that it never wants for speed through fast corners. But, the car will never set the speed trap on fire as a result. That's ok, because lap time is all that really counts. (Unless, of course, one is being overtaken at the end of a DRS straight, which is why Vettel goes hard for P1 in qualifying and tries to start the race like a bat out of hell to avoid falling to within 1 second of any rivals behind him.)
One second thought, to go along with the original question, maybe the splitter is being run in such a way to make contact with the ground so as to stall the floor to relieve the car of some drag along straights where downforce/drag is an unwanted hindrance. The active-suspension era Williams chassis was lifted on straights for this very reason.
As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
bhallg2k wrote:@ Blaze1
If, on the other hand, the RB8 is generating enough friction with the tea-tray to actually slow the car and necessitate additional cooling, I'm pretty sure the plank would then be worn away more than is allowed.
I think perhaps RBR have managed to accomplish a technique similar to what Scarbs described, where contact with the ground is spread over a much larger surface area.
Maybe. I just tend to think that if enough friction is generated to slow down a ~750bhp F1 car, it's going to wear away more than 1mm of the plank no matter how much it's spread out.
bhallg2k wrote:One would think that if the splitter has enough contact with the ground to hinder top speed and require additional cooling for friction that the plank would likely lose through wear more than the maximum 1mm allowed during a race. That's not to say that there isn't anything "tricky" going on with RB8's tea tray, but I think the car's lack of top speed is simply a reflection of the downforce it makes, because downforce always equals drag. Such a trade-off is easy to make with class-leading downforce levels that don't put the car at an especially significant disadvantage in terms of top speed.
Is this correct? I thought floor/diffuser downforce is for free and also can reduce drag.
Maybe the car is just not very efficient. In the aero/downforce-part of Barcelona it was not the fastest.
But last year the RB7 never made much of an impression on the top speed chart and the car was producing bags of down-force, even with a relatively small rear wing, so one assumes it was being generated by the under-body which is more efficient.
I was not talking about top speed but overall speed throught the part of Barcelona where downforce matters most.
@ bhallg2k whatever you say
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.
Here is a link to the animated .gif from iPlayer of the RB8's front splitter. Unfortunately its a lot smaller than the screen grabs, but I can send those to anyone who wants them. http://gifninja.com/animated-gifs/10638 ... deflection
Just have the new AutoMotorundSport magazine on my Frukost table, They say Red Bull ran until now with their illegal wheelhub design. EBD ban did cost them 2sec. ,Banned flexiwings did cost them another 0.8sec. and 5kph in top speed.
They invested 2 years in the development/perfection of flexiwings. For every circuit they built a different spec flexiwing in 2011, totalling in 72(seventytwo) wings.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.
That broadly lines up with Gerhard Berger on Sky at (iirc) Monaco, he said EBD cost RBR 1.5s and flexiwings 0.5s per lap. Webber's performance vs Vettel since 2009, if you believe that Seb was always better at extracting corner speed from the EBD, also provides some backup.
FrukostScones wrote:Just have the new AutoMotorundSport magazine on my Frukost table, They say Red Bull ran until now with their illegal wheelhub design. EBD ban did cost them 2sec. ,Banned flexiwings did cost them another 0.8sec. and 5kph in top speed.
They invested 2 years in the development/perfection of flexiwings. For every circuit they built a different spec flexiwing in 2011, totalling in 72(seventytwo) wings.
if all that is true, I have much less respect for this team than I used to now.
FrukostScones wrote:Just have the new AutoMotorundSport magazine on my Frukost table, They say Red Bull ran until now with their illegal wheelhub design. EBD ban did cost them 2sec. ,Banned flexiwings did cost them another 0.8sec. and 5kph in top speed.
They invested 2 years in the development/perfection of flexiwings. For every circuit they built a different spec flexiwing in 2011, totalling in 72(seventytwo) wings.
The RedBull wheelhub was NOT illegal. It was passed at two races before Canada, as LEGAL. But it has now been ruled against for FUTURE races. The FIA knew about the hub and technical details were posted on the official F1 website.
It is also the reason why McLaren did not use their adjustable ducting for the last two races, as they also had a modified wheel to extract the air! They were questioning the Red Bull hub, and as they were using a somewhat similar idea, they could not run with it
