Red Bull RB9 Renault

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Huntresa
Huntresa
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:10 pm

Rly shows how good aero the Red Bull car has when they can run such low DF on the RW compared to eveyone and even run 2 such different ones within the team and almost be equally quick and pretty much beat everyone.

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raymondu999
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:08 am

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失败者找理由,成功者找方法

elchuso
elchuso
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"BIG BANG" THEORY

Post Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:04 pm

It's just a question ...... My knowledge about V8 engines does not stand for a full explanation, but anyway there goes my theory ........
Does RB uses a sort of cylinder deactivation in some sort of way to emulate a "big bang" engine like th MotoGp engines ?
If so, they could deactivate some cylinders in a sort of way that torque could be concentrated in an almost sigle point instead of the whole cycle. This sort of solution could ease the tyre efforts to remain on the grip "sweet spot", thus permitting early accelaration on slow corners and a limited slip.
This may also explain the funny noise coming from engines in those situations.
The only questions are:
Is it feasible ?
What about vibrations induced by such a deactivation ? We knew that was the hardest thing to cope with MotoGp engines.
How ? (in a sort of automatic mode).
Any comments ?
Thanks.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:36 pm

Say, using the KERS system?

Neil Roberts

"That would definitely work, but only on a slower frequency than the engine speed. The reason for that is the torsional flexibility of the input shaft and halfshafts. The big bang concept only works if the driveline is very stiff, so that the individual cylinder firing torque pulses are directly transmitted to the tire(s). Open wheeler drivelines are designed to be torsionally flexible, specifically to absorb the individual cylinder torque spikes. That is necessary in order to make the gears last long enough. That flexibility is why your RPM oscillates after every upshift."

Brian

timbo
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:30 pm

hardingfv32 wrote:"....That flexibility is why your RPM oscillates after every upshift."
Great info!

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theWPTformula
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Location: UK

Re: "BIG BANG" THEORY

Post Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:02 am

elchuso wrote:It's just a question ...... My knowledge about V8 engines does not stand for a full explanation, but anyway there goes my theory ........
Does RB uses a sort of cylinder deactivation in some sort of way to emulate a "big bang" engine like th MotoGp engines ?
If so, they could deactivate some cylinders in a sort of way that torque could be concentrated in an almost sigle point instead of the whole cycle. This sort of solution could ease the tyre efforts to remain on the grip "sweet spot", thus permitting early accelaration on slow corners and a limited slip.
This may also explain the funny noise coming from engines in those situations.
The only questions are:
Is it feasible ?
What about vibrations induced by such a deactivation ? We knew that was the hardest thing to cope with MotoGp engines.
How ? (in a sort of automatic mode).
Any comments ?
Thanks.
Most teams can cut the engine down to 6 or even 4 cylinders at slow speed. This lowers torque and also forces the exhaust gases through the system, creating better rear end grip at these speeds. As you say, this is why you hear lots of cut sounds at lower RPM and slow speed corners.

The engine maps dictate when the cylinder cuts occur but torque mapping also has an influence (position of the pedal relative to the torque output). This is something that Renault and Red Bull have been tweaking subtly over the years to produce better rear stability and maximise Vettel's driving style.

Hopefully I've answered your questions correctly!

elchuso
elchuso
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:14 pm

I know that by deactivating cylinders torque descends, that's normal.
But I mean deactivating those mentioned cylinders in a manner that the activated ones fire quite close in time and the deactivated ones do not fire and produce a sort of "no torque" at all cycle .......
This will allow a pulsing cycle, that concentrates power (torque) in a short moment, followed by a no torque longer cycle, thus allowing tyres to recover adherence, and limiting slip, as they are doing now with "big bang" MotoGp engines against the old "screamers" ones.
This could also help a lot on using exhaust gasses to increase downforce on the car with the longer no-torque-high-exhaust-gas cycle at a critical moment to maintain tyres on their adherence "sweet spot".
Also as above mentioned, elasticity of the cinematic chain, will help to attenuate the torque sipkes produced by this comfiguration.
I was one of the Journalists that discovered Cagiva "spying" Honda at Jerez Circuit with microphones, antennas and oscilloscopes trying to understand why their engines where producing that funny low-frequency sound ( Big-Bang). The rest is history :-)
The question remains:
Unwanted (or not) torque oscillations that can be controlled by elasticity and terrible vibrations on crakshaft, that I don't know if the engine can handle for a short moment.
I hope to have explained right .........
Sorry for my English.
Last edited by elchuso on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

AnthonyG
AnthonyG
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:14 pm

Looking at that drawing, I wonder, are you allowed to place the engine upside down or just on one side, so that the V-shape becomes an L?
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

Lycoming
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:27 am

Why? It's not designed to run in that orientation, there will probably be issues with oil/fuel starvation.

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aleks_ader
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:27 am

AnthonyG wrote:
Looking at that drawing, I wonder, are you allowed to place the engine upside down or just on one side, so that the V-shape becomes an L?
Yes it is possible, but common sense simply makes to much troubles than is worth. Let see...

1. History teach us that Gordon Murrys masterpiece Brabham BT55 BMW I4 engine very lean position has more troubles that real effectiveness. The biggest problem was to much dynamic changing CofG due very extreme and uneven position of all moving parts. That disturb car handling a lot, very undrivabble car. Balance that all moving forces on strange places is HUGE problem... Even engine design itselfes is HUGE nightmare as well. It takes HUGE modifications on the drypump sys, lubrication sys , cooling sys etc.

2. I assume you think next 2014 rules and article 5.3.2 dedicate the cetral position of the crankshaft and just 90mm above reference plane. That really even more increase unsymmetrically problem...

3. Turbo positions longitudinal axis is mandated (article 5.16) in certain strict parallel line with crankshaft. So that leads into exhaust problem =>uneven pulsation from each engine bank, due unsymmetrical positioning (difficult to make exact the same exhaust length)

4. According above 3 point balancing that is a real NIHGTMARE

Under these current rules this is just uncompetitive solution. That is may point view...
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

aral
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:22 pm

AnthonyG wrote:
Looking at that drawing, I wonder, are you allowed to place the engine upside down or just on one side, so that the V-shape becomes an L?
Possible? Maybe if you designed an engine to take that configuration, but totally impossible with current engine. Everything would have to be changed such as lubrication channels, water jackets etc. A flat V is the closest anyone has come to an inverted V.

miguelalvesreis
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:13 pm

gilgen wrote:
AnthonyG wrote:
Looking at that drawing, I wonder, are you allowed to place the engine upside down or just on one side, so that the V-shape becomes an L?
Possible? Maybe if you designed an engine to take that configuration, but totally impossible with current engine. Everything would have to be changed such as lubrication channels, water jackets etc. A flat V is the closest anyone has come to an inverted V.
And how would that be of interest? The weight of the crank and axle and gearbox all on a higher position?
And like an "L"? How would you balance that? The reaction and vibrations on the chassis I mean,

Technically could be done. "H" and "X" engines were used in propeller aircrafts.

stefan_
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:42 am

India 2013 - Thursday (24.10.2013)

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"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

Kai
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:23 am

How do you go about viewing those pictures you guys post every week. IE. Where do you get them from?

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gandharva
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

Post Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:17 pm

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