Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Huntresa wrote:
stefan_ wrote:Another rarity I stumbled upon yesterday, with the help of Scarbs' retweets.

Senna testing an MP4/5B fitted with a high nose at Monza in 1990.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_T_ZkCEAA0qme.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_QQQhIIAEG_jb.jpg:large

Did someone forget the word pillar ? Or didnt the regs allow it? I mean its looks retarded to say it lite with the FW at the same height as the nose.
That was when people started to figure out that by raising the nose off the ground they could improve airflow to the floor. Which lead to crude solutions like these.

Benneton was the first in 1991 with the B191 to actually use pillars and utilize the full area of the front wing. Other solutions at the time connected the wing elements to the nose.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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Tim.Wright
463
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:29 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Huntresa wrote:
stefan_ wrote:Another rarity I stumbled upon yesterday, with the help of Scarbs' retweets.

Senna testing an MP4/5B fitted with a high nose at Monza in 1990.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_T_ZkCEAA0qme.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_QQQhIIAEG_jb.jpg:large

Did someone forget the word pillar ? Or didnt the regs allow it? I mean its looks retarded to say it lite with the FW at the same height as the nose.
Yes, it seems that in 1990 Gordon Murray hadn't yet reached your level of aerodynamic expertise...
Not the engineer at Force India

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Huntresa wrote:
stefan_ wrote:Another rarity I stumbled upon yesterday, with the help of Scarbs' retweets.

Senna testing an MP4/5B fitted with a high nose at Monza in 1990.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_T_ZkCEAA0qme.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_QQQhIIAEG_jb.jpg:large

Did someone forget the word pillar ? Or didnt the regs allow it? I mean its looks retarded to say it lite with the FW at the same height as the nose.
Yes, it seems that in 1990 Gordon Murray hadn't yet reached your level of aerodynamic expertise...
Whats up with the comment, i said it looks retarded, which is does, i didnt question the actual degree of effectivness.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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wesley123 wrote:
Huntresa wrote:
stefan_ wrote:Another rarity I stumbled upon yesterday, with the help of Scarbs' retweets.

Senna testing an MP4/5B fitted with a high nose at Monza in 1990.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_T_ZkCEAA0qme.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba_QQQhIIAEG_jb.jpg:large

Did someone forget the word pillar ? Or didnt the regs allow it? I mean its looks retarded to say it lite with the FW at the same height as the nose.
That was when people started to figure out that by raising the nose off the ground they could improve airflow to the floor. Which lead to crude solutions like these.

Benneton was the first in 1991 with the B191 to actually use pillars and utilize the full area of the front wing. Other solutions at the time connected the wing elements to the nose.
Actually i would say it was the Tyrell 019 used in 1990 that was the first to race a raised nose with pillars, eventho they are more part of the wing itself.

marcush.
marcush.
268
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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not unraced ,but you can clearly see the same idea here- so pilars were not yet invented one might think.

stefan_
stefan_
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:43 am
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Maybe they thought about the top sides of the FW to get the airflow over the sidepods/tires through to the rear wing and the bottom to make a "tunnel" that goes into and around the sidepods (hence the large endplates). Don't know about the central part. But then again, I am pretty much guessing as I am still learning/reading about aero , so...
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

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matt21
101
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Don´t know if this was posted somewhere else (I couldn´t find anything) and if it is the right thread.

Epsilon Euskadi already had a cara in the wind tunnel.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... -revealed/

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F1NAC
168
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:35 pm
Location: CRO

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Ferrari 312 T4A

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Nose that was never raced
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Gridlock
60
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:14 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Going back to the OP, John Howett got to drive a TF110 and bent it?

Is it common (well, before the testing ban) for the boss to have a go?
#58

f1316
f1316
128
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Just realised now how the current McLaren colour scheme is a direct echo of the 90s prototype Honda scheme!

1992 Honda RC101 (RC-F1 1.5X)
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1996 Honda RC101B (RC-F1 2.0X)

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Edit
2016 McLaren Honda MP4-31 'prototype?'

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Last edited by f1316 on Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EvilPhil II
EvilPhil II
11
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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1992 Williams FW15

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stefan_
stefan_
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:43 am
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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I think we can unfortunately add the 2017 Manor wind tunnel model in this thread.

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"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

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ScrewCaptain27
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:13 am
Location: Udine, Italy

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Never seen before image of the 2015 Caterham CT06:
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Many thanks to Mr. Kevin Thomas
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

desl
desl
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Built but unraced Formula 1 cars

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Franco Rocchi wasn't the only one who tried to bring his W-engine with "three-bank" design into formula one.

At the end of the 80s - after the turbo era - it was more or less unclear which engine design may be the best with a naturally aspired engine. The V8, the V10, the V12 or exotic engines like the Motori Moderni "Subaru 1235" and Rocchi's "Life F35 3.5 W12" and the Neotech V12 (an engine with drawing power from the centre of the engine like the Porsche 3512 a few years later. EuroBrun tried to aquire the Neotech engines but they lost financel backing)

In 1988, Guy Nègre and his small company Moteurs Guy Nègre designed a W12-engine (60°/60°, 3 banks with 4 cylinders, 3.5l) more or less comparable with the Life engine.
According to MGN, the engine produced 630HP at 15.000rpm which would have been ~30-50HP less than the Honda RA109E in the dominating McLaren MP4/5 and less than than the powerfull but thirsty V12-engines (Ferrari, Lamborghini). But it would have been about as powerful as the V8 engines (Cosworth DFR, Yamaha OX88, Judd CV).

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The 15.000rpm sounded a bit optimistic (the other engines had about 12.500rpm). Something special about the MGN engine were the rotary valves intended to make a higher rpm numbers possible.

There were never real negotiations between MGN and AGS (Automobiles Gonfaronnaises Sportives) to use the engine in the ATS-F1-team but Guy Nègre purchased an old AGS JH22 chassis (which raced in the '87 season) to test the W12 engine.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWb70X0xELA

MGN tested on the Circuit Du Grand Sambuc at September 1989 with an unknown driver. Nègre looked to arouse interest to his W12-engine with those tests ... but actually no F1 team was really interested.
Rocchi instead found an entrepeneur (Ernesto Vita) who buyed his engines for the Life team in 1990.

Guy Negré looked out for other options for usage of his engine in 1990.

With the end of the turbo era in the Formula 1, the FIA decided to change the World Sportscar Championship, too. Starting in 1989 the Group C teams should be prod to use 3.5l engines more or less the same as in the F1.
The manufactors (like Mercedes) now thought about entering the F1 rather than the WSC and the private teams got financial problems. That decision was the end of the beginning of the once very popular Group C cars.

With the Group C using 3.5l engines, Guy Nègre found a team interested to use his W12 engine at the 24h of Le Mans 1990.
"Armagnac Bigorre" wanted to race a Norma C6 with the MGN W12 engine ... but the car never left the box. Rumors are that the team was unable to start the engine.

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The 24h of Le Mans weren't part of the World Sportscar Championship in 1990 and saw some different cars (f.e. the absense of the Sauber/Mercedes C11).

There were a lot of different engines. The winning Jaguar 7.0l V12, the Turbo-enginges by Porsche, Nissan, Ferrari and Toyota, the naturally apired Cosworth-engines, the 10.2l-iron-monster Eagle/Schubeck 621 (originally designed for dragster races) and the 4-rotor engines by Mazda (13J and 26B which won the following year).

The different engine concepts saw different advatages (f.e. the Jaguar's needed more fuel, the Mazda's less) ... it remains unclear whether the W-engine might be competitive