Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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mmred
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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De Jokke wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:25 pm
Who else feels surprised? Did Merc make up time on high DF circuits? Was expecting Ferrari on pole before the weekend, considering the twisty third sector.
not really a DF circuit
when you have so long straights you have to make compromises and the overall level of DF is the result of other factors too as tyrewear, grip, temperatures. From similar redbull difficulties it seems that the compromise for everybody is Low Downforce, and the very slow sector favours optimal tyre temperature more than aero performance and that can be helped by some different suspension setup, that probably you pay on the straight or with tyrewear

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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mmred wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:56 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:25 pm
Who else feels surprised? Did Merc make up time on high DF circuits? Was expecting Ferrari on pole before the weekend, considering the twisty third sector.
not really a DF circuit
when you have so long straights you have to make compromises and the overall level of DF is the result of other factors too as tyrewear, grip, temperatures. From similar redbull difficulties it seems that the compromise for everybody is Low Downforce, and the very slow sector favours optimal tyre temperature more than aero performance and that can be helped by some different suspension setup, that probably you pay on the straight or with tyrewear
If the circuit wasn't a downforce circuit, Williams and FI should have been ahead of Bulls and Renault.
Hulk put that Renault ahead of both Williams and FI, on a circuit that has two long straights. Shows something.

Any corner that can be taken over 130 requires very good level of downforce. There are also corners that are taken over 200, which requires very high and efficient downforce. Corners below 100, requires good mechanical grip that yields great traction at the corner exit as the torque that comes at the first and second gears can easily cause a lot of wheelspin due to the car being almost at stand still (in racing terms) at 60-70-80 kmph. Out of 21 corners, there are only 6 corners (spread across the circuit and not just in one sector) that are below 100 kph. Only two of them are below 70 kph.

Yas Marina, is definitely a track that requires a great deal of downforce for both mid-speed and high-speed corners. The sector 3 here, definitely was set to favor Mercedes as there are only 2 corners that could have favored Ferrari. That didn't happen either. So far this season, on tracks that are similar in nature, Ferrari has always been ahead of Mercedes in slower sections. More than Ferrari having lost anything, seems like Mercedes have managed to find something. I had commented in the race thread, where someone had pointed that Sector 3 will definitely be Ferrari sector, that it is not going to be that way as it only had 2 out of 11 corners that go below 100 kph. So, I am not surprised that Mercedes did better than Ferrari in S3.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26819&p=728752#p728752

mmred
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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GPR-A wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:40 pm
mmred wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:56 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:25 pm
Who else feels surprised? Did Merc make up time on high DF circuits? Was expecting Ferrari on pole before the weekend, considering the twisty third sector.
not really a DF circuit
when you have so long straights you have to make compromises and the overall level of DF is the result of other factors too as tyrewear, grip, temperatures. From similar redbull difficulties it seems that the compromise for everybody is Low Downforce, and the very slow sector favours optimal tyre temperature more than aero performance and that can be helped by some different suspension setup, that probably you pay on the straight or with tyrewear
If the circuit wasn't a downforce circuit, Williams and FI should have been ahead of Bulls and Renault.
Hulk put that Renault ahead of both Williams and FI, on a circuit that has two long straights. Shows something.

Any corner that can be taken over 130 requires very good level of downforce. There are also corners that are taken over 200, which requires very high and efficient downforce. Corners below 100, requires good mechanical grip that yields great traction at the corner exit as the torque that comes at the first and second gears can easily cause a lot of wheelspin due to the car being almost at stand still (in racing terms) at 60-70-80 kmph. Out of 21 corners, there are only 6 corners (spread across the circuit and not just in one sector) that are below 100 kph. Only two of them are below 70 kph.

Yas Marina, is definitely a track that requires a great deal of downforce for both mid-speed and high-speed corners. The sector 3 here, definitely was set to favor Mercedes as there are only 2 corners that could have favored Ferrari. That didn't happen either. So far this season, on tracks that are similar in nature, Ferrari has always been ahead of Mercedes in slower sections. More than Ferrari having lost anything, seems like Mercedes have managed to find something. I had commented in the race thread, where someone had pointed that Sector 3 will definitely be Ferrari sector, that it is not going to be that way as it only had 2 out of 11 corners that go below 100 kph. So, I am not surprised that Mercedes did better than Ferrari in S3.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26819&p=728752#p728752
depends what you consider DF circuit, it s relative, also i think last spec of Renault is similar to mercedes clients so...
but i was reasonin on the top 3 teams, if it would be a df circuit they would be closer in performance and the order too would be different ( but that s secundary ) so it is middle to low... problem as i said is the consecutive time you are on full throttle , that limits the df you can afford, not only the number of turns, computations are tricky there are simulators for that...
i d say if mercedes can make the difference in one fast sector of 3 tenths, that it qualifies it as M to LDF

if you think they made a step only in this race i dont know, but depends also by how they use the tyres.... who knows, i ve seen an enormous step in pu performance partially linked to brazil conditions, but also in brasil, turns were always favourable to ferrari and mercedes didnt bring' new suspensions or new aero here so it s difficult to say with what i know ( they can also have a very great pu performance and put more df )....

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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mmred wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:37 am
but i was reasonin on the top 3 teams, if it would be a df circuit they would be closer in performance
Suzuka is considered a high downforce circuit (More famous recently as a Red Bull circuit due to 2009-2013 performances). But there too in qualifying, Lewis was six tenths ahead of the best Ferrari and a second ahead of the best Red Bull.

mmred
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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GPR-A wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:12 am
mmred wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:37 am
but i was reasonin on the top 3 teams, if it would be a df circuit they would be closer in performance
Suzuka is considered a high downforce circuit (More famous recently as a Red Bull circuit due to 2009-2013 performances). But there too in qualifying, Lewis was six tenths ahead of the best Ferrari and a second ahead of the best Red Bull.
also if you use max DF, and you dont use same DF in suzuka as in monaco, that still doesnt make irrelevant 2km of pure speed part... the question is more complex, these power units are so determinant that they influence every performance, with a little space for them.

i said , the problem is there s no new aero so how can they improve toward races with worse turn performance, the solution is pu mode and aero setup, dont think they can become aero dominant in a season in wich they werent in the last two races with no aero modification at all

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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mmred wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:42 pm
i said , the problem is there s no new aero so how can they improve toward races with worse turn performance, the solution is pu mode and aero setup, dont think they can become aero dominant in a season in wich they werent in the last two races with no aero modification at all
You did not read my first reply properly. Low speed corner performance is all about mechanical grip and for that, you don't need aero parts to fix it. It is more about the suspension, CoG and weight distribution balance, that dictates traction. Good mechanical grip, less wheel spin. When a driver knows that, as soon as he goes on gas there is going to be wheel spin, he then goes for slow input to the throttle. But if a driver is confident that he can nail the throttle and there isn't going to be wheel spin, you get performance.

mmred
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power +

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GPR-A wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:32 pm
mmred wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:42 pm
i said , the problem is there s no new aero so how can they improve toward races with worse turn performance, the solution is pu mode and aero setup, dont think they can become aero dominant in a season in wich they werent in the last two races with no aero modification at all
You did not read my first reply properly. Low speed corner performance is all about mechanical grip and for that, you don't need aero parts to fix it. It is more about the suspension, CoG and weight distribution balance, that dictates traction. Good mechanical grip, less wheel spin. When a driver knows that, as soon as he goes on gas there is going to be wheel spin, he then goes for slow input to the throttle. But if a driver is confident that he can nail the throttle and there isn't going to be wheel spin, you get performance.
ah i agree they surely made a suspension step forward, in race the main distance was mainly pu, but they were competitive or comparable where they cearly werent before, i just presumed it was a tyre setup related issue, we ve seen that sometimes from mercedes, when they had the tyre better than anyone they could be competitive also where they were usually behind...