Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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Holm86
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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I'm wondering if this suspension geometry is a result of the wider track?

To me it looks like it gives negative camber on the outside wheel when turning, and positive camber on the inside wheel, making the wheels "lean" into the corners.

roon
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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One of the better looking cars for 2017.

The sidepod inlet bulges forward at its base:

Image

External front suspension pivot:

Image

Widely spaced cameras:

Image

Rear wheels seems to lack winglets:

Image

Monkey seat looks like it's designed to capture as much exhaust flow as possible.

Vladimir
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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Well done TR =D> Seems thay did it again. Great car.

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Holm86
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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roon wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/RWYeT8Ah.jpg

Monkey seat looks like it's designed to capture as much exhaust flow as possible.
Exactly, as I wrote in the Ferrari thread, the increased distance (because of the rear wing being moved back) between the exhaust exit, and the monkey seat allows for blowing the monkey seat much more.

THRAK
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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ToroRosso intuiting a similar front suspension layout as Mercedes' one shows another time they are top level at innovation. In the last years they set so many trends (exhaust-through RW pylon, RW endplates, huge multifonctional airscope way before Merc did, FW cascade design... ). I bet the sidepods inlets are another smart way of making profit of the new regulations (as Ferrari did, but in a totally different fashion). Add the drastic reduction of the sidepods exits compared to previous racers, and here we have a very neat and impressive car. =D>

Image
Last edited by THRAK on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zioture
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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clipsy1H
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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I don't know why you guys are so happy, just about the paint job? Yeah car looks very nice, perfect color combination but what about the car itself?
Ok, Mercedes nose (thank God) and suspension with undercut sidepods but to me it's weak, i expected more from them .

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cmF1
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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clipsy1H wrote:I don't know why you guys are so happy, just about the paint job? Yeah car looks very nice, perfect color combination but what about the car itself?
Ok, Mercedes nose (thank God) and suspension with undercut sidepods but to me it's weak, i expected more from them .
Unfortunately guns and firework cannons aren't allowed in the regulations. Let's just wait until testing starts before saying it looks weak.
プラスとマイナス

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clipsy1H
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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yeah you're right ! but still i think they can do more :) but nevermind it's a beautiful looking car.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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Holm86 wrote:I'm wondering if this suspension geometry is a result of the wider track?

To me it looks like it gives negative camber on the outside wheel when turning, and positive camber on the inside wheel, making the wheels "lean" into the corners.
The angle you can somewhat imply from the upper ball joint is kingpin inclination (kpi) angle and is produces the opposite effect of what you say - i.e. positive camber on the outer wheel. So it's definitely not done for that reason. If you want negative camber angle on the outer wheel you need to minimise the kpi and increase the caster angle.

I think I have a reasonable understanding of why Mercedes and Toro Rosso have the long spindle type upright. Basically they have wanted to move both the lower suspension arm up as high as possible. Look at the picture below and you can see it enters the wheel ABOVE the wheel centre.
Image

With the lower arm up so high, the upper arm had to follow it for structural reasons in order to keep the camber stiffness up (which is probably more critical with the wider tyres).
Not the engineer at Force India

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Holm86
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Holm86 wrote:I'm wondering if this suspension geometry is a result of the wider track?

To me it looks like it gives negative camber on the outside wheel when turning, and positive camber on the inside wheel, making the wheels "lean" into the corners.
The angle you can somewhat imply from the upper ball joint is kingpin inclination (kpi) angle and is produces the opposite effect of what you say - i.e. positive camber on the outer wheel. So it's definitely not done for that reason. If you want negative camber angle on the outer wheel you need to minimise the kpi and increase the caster angle.

I think I have a reasonable understanding of why Mercedes and Toro Rosso have the long spindle type upright. Basically they have wanted to move both the lower suspension arm up as high as possible. Look at the picture below and you can see it enters the wheel ABOVE the wheel centre.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2zqzvhi.jpg

With the lower arm up so high, the upper arm had to follow it for structural reasons in order to keep the camber stiffness up (which is probably more critical with the wider tyres).
No, the top point is mounted behind the lower point, this is positive caster angle, and that does increase negative camber when turning.
You achieve higher KPI by having the top mount further inward than the lower mounting point. That would also make to increase the KPI to reduce the scrubbing of the new wider tires ...

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NathanOlder
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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So why do they want both wishbones so high !
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault (subject to change)

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Holm86 wrote: No, the top point is mounted behind the lower point, this is positive caster angle, and that does increase negative camber when turning.
You achieve higher KPI by having the top mount further inward than the lower mounting point. That would also make to increase the KPI to reduce the scrubbing of the new wider tires ...
That's exactly that I said:
Tim.Wright wrote:If you want negative camber angle on the outer wheel you need to minimise the kpi and increase the caster angle.
KPI does the opposite of caster in terms of camber angle though.
Last edited by Tim.Wright on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not the engineer at Force India

PhillipM
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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Less tyre scrub, given the wider tyres might be more of an issue.

roon
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Re: Toro Rosso STR12 Renault

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Holm86 wrote:I'm wondering if this suspension geometry is a result of the wider track?

To me it looks like it gives negative camber on the outside wheel when turning, and positive camber on the inside wheel, making the wheels "lean" into the corners.
The angle you can somewhat imply from the upper ball joint is kingpin inclination (kpi) angle and is produces the opposite effect of what you say - i.e. positive camber on the outer wheel. So it's definitely not done for that reason. If you want negative camber angle on the outer wheel you need to minimise the kpi and increase the caster angle.

I think I have a reasonable understanding of why Mercedes and Toro Rosso have the long spindle type upright. Basically they have wanted to move both the lower suspension arm up as high as possible. Look at the picture below and you can see it enters the wheel ABOVE the wheel centre.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2zqzvhi.jpg

With the lower arm up so high, the upper arm had to follow it for structural reasons in order to keep the camber stiffness up (which is probably more critical with the wider tyres).

The steering arm is intersecting above centerline. Lower control arm seems to intersect around centerline, which has been a standard position for the past few years. I think you're right about camber stiffness—wider, heavier wheels benefitting from a taller upright/kingpin height.

Now how far inside the wheel is the pivot on the lower arm?