Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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TEHNOS
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Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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f1316 wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:08 pm
Giando wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:45 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:09 am
It is ironic that Piola supposedly leaked a similar design some years before and the Ferrari car has it now? That was the drawing he had with the wings on the side of the cockpit. Maybe Ferrari designers did have a few sketches floating around at the inception of the 2017 regulations... Only the insiders really now..
You refer to this drawing, right?

http://f1sintraccion.com/wordpress/wp-c ... 2-terv.jpg
I know it's been discussed before but I've also been wondering along these lines.

I remember this was pre 2012 season and much of the talk that year was of Rory Byrne's involvement - as it was this year. Part of me wonders if this is a concept Byrne had in his mind for a while, possibly with a small R&D group as a back burner project.

The 2012 was the first Pat Fry led concept, so maybe he was resistant to outside ideas, or maybe the concept just wasn't developed enough yet; either way, I find it a bit of a coincidence for there to be absolutely no connection.
Seems feasible =D>

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Yes, what's also interesting is that during the 2012 pre season there were speculation of Rory working on some kind of "thermal" floor...
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

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TEHNOS
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Of course there is more

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... r_ano.html
The veteran Italian technical journalist Giorgio Piola has produced one of his famous drawings based on leaked details of the new Ferrari.

Image

“If the pictures are accurate,” BBC F1’s technical analyst Gary Anderson says, “Ferrari seem to have gone a different route by shortening the sidepods and having the crash structure (beside the driver) separate and in front of the sidepod.
“They’re trying to remove the blockage the sidepods create to the airflow coming off the front of the car.
“It’s a total concept thing – in that it is integral to the whole car design. So if it works, they’ve got one up on everyone else.”

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TEHNOS
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:46 pm
Yes, what's also interesting is that during the 2012 pre season there were speculation of Rory working on some kind of "thermal" floor...
Flew over 48 pages of F2012 speculation thread, to summarize:
heavy Byrne involvement
revolutionary reduced radiators size
tons of words of thermal floor and revolutionary diffusor with great seal
sidepods pushed back for lessend blockage
sidepod wings

and then F2012 appeared...

But it is indeed possible it took some time to mature, esp.sidepod wings, considering present complexity,being developed further as separate project, or was even taken from the shelf during past year reorganization,internal recruiting and renoved heavy Byrne involvment

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TEHNOS
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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f1316
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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TEHNOS wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:14 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:46 pm
Yes, what's also interesting is that during the 2012 pre season there were speculation of Rory working on some kind of "thermal" floor...
Flew over 48 pages of F2012 speculation thread, to summarize:
heavy Byrne involvement
revolutionary reduced radiators size
tons of words of thermal floor and revolutionary diffusor with great seal
sidepods pushed back for lessend blockage
sidepod wings

and then F2012 appeared...

But it is indeed possible it took some time to mature, esp.sidepod wings, considering present complexity,being developed further as separate project, or was even taken from the shelf during past year reorganization,internal recruiting and renoved heavy Byrne involvment
Craig Slater mentions on the Sky F1 report that Ferrari say the 2017 car is not James Allison's concept - that he wanted to go in a different direction.

Now the response on the show was "well they would say that wouldn't they" - and that may well be valid - but consider the following:

- you fire your technical director shortly before a major regulation change
- if you were to continue down the direction he conceived, you're losing the person who best understands the concept and knows how best to develop it
- otherwise, it's too late to completely start from scratch, so you require a project that has reached a certain level of maturity

Those things in mind, it becomes even more plausible.

Here's a quick comparison I made between the concept from 2012 and the reality in 2017 - and let's bear mind that, contrary to suggestions made elsewhere on this forum by people who shall remain nameless, Piola did not pluck this out of thin air because he felt like it; he based the picture on information he had gleaned from sources at Ferrari:

Image

The primary points I'm trying to highlight are:

- the relative similarity in shape of the structures in front of the sidepod (bearing in mind that in 2012 there was no regulation about a slanted front to the sidepod - in 2017 suddenly there came a regulation which encouraged this direction)

- the relationship between the front of the sidepod itself and the driver head restraints
Last edited by f1316 on Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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turbof1
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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The similarities are indeed quite obvious, although the upper side impact structures are differently positioned (in the 2012 drawing above the the sidepod inlet, and with the SF70H right below the inlet.

However, I think you should also keep the timing in mind: the reason why they introduced it this year is because of the larger unregulated boxes in front of the sidepods. WIthout more allowed bodywork to control flow in front of the sidepod structures, this might not be a viable solution as the high up sidepods would not get enough airflow for cooling. The numerous small flow conditioners right inside the structure in front of inlet tells this is a very delicate area.
#AeroFrodo

f1316
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Yes, I think there are specific regulations for this year that have encouraged the direction - the unregulated box you mention, and the intended slanted sidepods (which everyone found a way not to do).

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turbof1
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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The most genious part is the upper sidepod inlet. Normally these kind of openings are illegal, but Ferrari very cleverly use the wing structure in that regard. Interesting that Piola did not get this information back in 2012. He was leaked some details, but his contact kept the best bits secret as the same solution should have been legal in that year as well.

If this truly is a design that needed 5 years of maturing plus regulatory freeing up of the area around it, then it'll be very hard to copy even next year.
#AeroFrodo

f1316
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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turbof1 wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:36 am
The most genious part is the upper sidepod inlet. Normally these kind of openings are illegal, but Ferrari very cleverly use the wing structure in that regard. Interesting that Piola did not get this information back in 2012. He was leaked some details, but his contact kept the best bits secret as the same solution should have been legal in that year as well.
Unless of course they hadn't thought of it yet and hence one of the reasons why it wasn't in a position to be greenlit?

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turbof1
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Possible, but I personally doubt that among the hundreds of engineers at Ferrari nobody thought of it back then.
#AeroFrodo

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TEHNOS
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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turbof1 wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:36 am
The most genious part is the upper sidepod inlet. Normally these kind of openings are illegal, but Ferrari very cleverly use the wing structure in that regard. Interesting that Piola did not get this information back in 2012. He was leaked some details, but his contact kept the best bits secret as the same solution should have been legal in that year as well.

If this truly is a design that needed 5 years of maturing plus regulatory freeing up of the area around it, then it'll be very hard to copy even next year.
What exactly is the trick with the upper hole

Or is it just the lateral connection of the wing and sidepod that creates it?

Overall definitelly quite complex solution to copy.

roon
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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I don't think there's a trick. Forward of the rear face of that "upper hole" (the topside inlet) they're free to make just about any shape they want.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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TEHNOS wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:14 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:46 pm
Yes, what's also interesting is that during the 2012 pre season there were speculation of Rory working on some kind of "thermal" floor...
Flew over 48 pages of F2012 speculation thread, to summarize:
heavy Byrne involvement
revolutionary reduced radiators size
tons of words of thermal floor and revolutionary diffusor with great seal
sidepods pushed back for lessend blockage
sidepod wings

and then F2012 appeared...

But it is indeed possible it took some time to mature, esp.sidepod wings, considering present complexity,being developed further as separate project, or was even taken from the shelf during past year reorganization,internal recruiting and renoved heavy Byrne involvment
This! Taken from off the shelf is exactly what happened here. Being the new guy James would not have ran this risky concept and put his reputation on the line just like that. Everyone agrees that it is not James concept but i believe he did allow its development. There must have been alot of data files they dusted off to show him for it to be integrated into the early monocoque design. And remember the monocoque design must be locked in quite early.

roon
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Re: Potential 2012 design matured in 2017 specific parts

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:46 pm
Yes, what's also interesting is that during the 2012 pre season there were speculation of Rory working on some kind of "thermal" floor...
We should consider: what would be the advantage of a heated floor? Perhaps this about boundary layer effects. Or, maybe it has to do with the proximity of the floor to the ground, and the temperature delta between the two surfaces.

To the latter point: you have strong vortices pinned between the floor and the somewhat cooler track surface (depending on track conditions). The track is constantly being 'refreshed' beneath the moving car. So, despite the floor lacking fins to increase its emissive potential, perhaps having a cooler moving surface beneath it bridged by vortices provides enough exchange. Also, the low-pressure vortices will be dropping the ambient air temperature somewhat. By how much I'm unsure. The FW & RW can create vortices strong & cool enough to condense water out of the air, just as a point of reference.

Consider the now-bigger bargeboards forming condensation filled vortices in contact with the length of the underside of the floor. For one, this might be primarily for heat exchange. Or, it may be about adding energy to those same vortices, since they would start off cool and end up getting heated somewhat along their path toward the diffuser.