How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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Stormy
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How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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I was wondering, what kind of an impact does Power Steering have on the drivers? Can the drivers handle racing with these beasts without power steering? Is power steering necessary because of the huge cornering speeds F1 machines have nowadays? Or maybe power steering should be removed because the drivers should handle racing without it?

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garyjpaterson
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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I'd imagine if you were to take a modern F1 car and run it without power steering it would be an incredible challenge, due to the fact everything about it is designed with power steering in mind (suspension/steering geometry etc).

I think Indycars are probably the closest in terms of pace without power assisted steering, so its certainly possible is designed for it.

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Stormy
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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garyjpaterson wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:04 pm
I'd imagine if you were to take a modern F1 car and run it without power steering it would be an incredible challenge, due to the fact everything about it is designed with power steering in mind (suspension/steering geometry etc).

I think Indycars are probably the closest in terms of pace without power assisted steering, so its certainly possible is designed for it.
So, F1 skills and IndyCar skills are the same on a road track even though the former has power steering?

BanMeToo
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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I never knew until now but apparently Super Formula cars have power steering. F2 cars do not, is it simply a cost-saving measure?

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garyjpaterson
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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Stormy wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:57 pm
garyjpaterson wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:04 pm
I'd imagine if you were to take a modern F1 car and run it without power steering it would be an incredible challenge, due to the fact everything about it is designed with power steering in mind (suspension/steering geometry etc).

I think Indycars are probably the closest in terms of pace without power assisted steering, so its certainly possible is designed for it.
So, F1 skills and IndyCar skills are the same on a road track even though the former has power steering?
I would say pretty similar, within reason. But I don't know for sure, I've only driven road cars without powersteering!

Never heard anything from Alonso regarding the steering, so I guess he coped alright?

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mclaren111
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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There are limitations in F1"s power steering. Not exactly sure how they monitor it though.

Martin Brundle once mentioned it is not anywhere close to what you get in road cars.

Jerrycobra
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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This might not be a completely relevant article but it gives some insight regarding the topic


http://www.indycar.com/News/2016/10/10- ... yCar-vs-F1

ChrisDanger
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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Although this is a rally car (2017 Fiesta) with no power steering, it's informative nevertheless. The struggle starts to get more obvious after about 40 seconds.



Image

PhillipM
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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Very important with the way the modern geo is setup. They'd have to make a lot of changes to the front geometry if you removed power steering these days.

bill shoe
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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ChrisDanger wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:04 pm
Although this is a rally car (2017 Fiesta) with no power steering, it's informative nevertheless. The struggle starts to get more obvious after about 40 seconds.
The steering column is flexing up and down due to high-ish force at the steering wheel and the lack of corresponding adequate column support. If I was an engineer for that car and the driver said the steering was too heavy, I'd start by stiffening the column support. The current steering feels heavy in part because the driver expends too much mechanical work (force x distance) flexing the steering column.

ChrisDanger
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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bill shoe wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:10 pm
ChrisDanger wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:04 pm
Although this is a rally car (2017 Fiesta) with no power steering, it's informative nevertheless. The struggle starts to get more obvious after about 40 seconds.
The steering column is flexing up and down due to high-ish force at the steering wheel and the lack of corresponding adequate column support. If I was an engineer for that car and the driver said the steering was too heavy, I'd start by stiffening the column support. The current steering feels heavy in part because the driver expends too much mechanical work (force x distance) flexing the steering column.
Sorry, I did say the car had no power steering, but perhaps this was too implicit. The power steering failed*, hence why he is expending such effort, and clearly in a similar pain to those last few reps in the gym that you thought you couldn't do.

* - http://media.fiaerc.com/press-release/b ... ry-battle/

bill shoe
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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The high steering forces on F1 cars are largely the result of vehicle dynamics engineers trying to compensate for awkward vehicle fundamentals that are created by the rules.

The rules spec the tires, weight distribution, and a set of body/aero limitations that effectively dictate a downforce distribution. These things as spec'd by the rules do not match up with each other in an efficient or elegant way. The suspension/vehicle-dynamics engineer tries to force these things to work together better by using lots of castor and other things, but this results in heavy steering.

Also, if the driver steers with a really tiny "hand-yoke" instead of normal-size/shape steering wheel, then this increases steering weight. The current rules (hmmm, rules influence again) allow the front cockpit to be much narrower than the rear cockpit, so this effectively forces the steering wheel space to be very small.

bill shoe
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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ChrisDanger wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:16 pm
Sorry, I did say the car had no power steering, but perhaps this was too implicit. The power steering failed*, hence why he is expending such effort, and clearly in a similar pain to those last few reps in the gym that you thought you couldn't do.
Ha, OK, so if I was an engineer on that car then I would start by fixing the broken power-steering.

I think there is still some merit in the idea of ensuring mechanical efficiency in the system before saying power-assist is a must. If power-brakes had been allowed in F1 for the last 30 years then everyone would say it's impossible to brake effectively without assist. But yet despite non-assisted brakes and lots of material (stiffness) limitations, current F1 cars can brake quite effectively due to long-term focus on the mechanical efficiency of the system.

ChrisDanger
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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From an article written by Craig Scarborough.

Scarbs wrote:A kind of chicken and egg situation has grown up around the upright geometry with increasing offset being used to provide feedback at the cost of the mechanical effort to require to steer the car. Power steering allows the geometry and as a result the geometry becomes even more exaggerated, both sides driving each other. Now an F1 car is un-drivable without power steering...

Full article: http://scarbsf1.com/?p=4585.

Greg Locock
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Re: How Important Is Power Steering For The Drivers?

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If we turn back the clock 60 years to when road cars, by and large, did not have PAS, you need

-large scrub radius (say +100 mm) - this allows the wheel to roll when you are parking on a flat surface (ie no brakes) = only important at very low speeds

-small castor and in particular kpi - try and reduce jacking

-bignum steering ratios

-big steering wheels.

-big biceps

Once you have PAS you can get rid of those limitations and start to concentrate more on what the driver would /like/ as opposed to /need/.