Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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designf1
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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carisi2k
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As an Australian if I am a fanboy it is of the number 3 red bull driver and Holden. I am not a Toro rosso or Honda fanboy but I do like to put facts into my posts. As for calling Rondennis a fanboy. In his first reply he talks about the Toro Rosso chassis being horrible with no facts at all to back him up. He also called me delusional and blind as to think they could compete with Mclaren and Renault in 2018.

Facts show that Mclaren was fighting with Renault and Force India by years end with a more reliable if still down on power Honda spec 3.8 engine. Facts also show that after the STR to Honda announcement where carlos scored 4th at Singapore. Toro rosso only scored 1 more point with Kyvat till the end of the season due to issues with rookie drivers and engines blowing up or only operational at low power outputs. Nothing at all to do with the chassis.

Gerhardsa lol'd me and also put no evidence into his first reply about STR fighting with sauber in 2018 instead of Mclaren. He says that I assume Renault will make no progress but past evidence shows that aside from 2016 when they only had 2 teams to supply. Renault have constantly stagnated on engine development and Cyril has shown to be horrible when dealing with customer teams. Blaming the customer when clearly the fault lies with Renault. Does anybody see this changing in 2018? What will Mclaren do when presented with Cyril's forked tongue.

McHonda is pessimistic even though he shouldn't be as in his own words Alonso was beating STR at the end of 2017 with a more reliable engine. Mclaren were running loads of downforce to stiffle the improvements made to the 3.8 engine late in the season. The spec 4.0 unit according to wazari on this forum in the Honda thread had an extra 30kw with improved fuel consumption and ers capabilities might have pushed Alonso past the Renault in Abu Dhabi.

STR in 2018 will essentially be a full time test team for Red Bull and Honda. The 2016 Honda engine improved over the 2015 engine and I see no reason why the 2018 unit wouldn't improve over the fresh design 2017 Honda unit. Recent annoucnements show that the 2018 STR13 shouldn't be a half bad unit.

McHonda
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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carisi2k wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:59 pm


McHonda is pessimistic even though he shouldn't be as in his own words Alonso was beating STR at the end of 2017 with a more reliable engine. Mclaren were running loads of downforce to stiffle the improvements made to the 3.8 engine late in the season. The spec 4.0 unit according to wazari on this forum in the Honda thread had an extra 30kw with improved fuel consumption and ers capabilities might have pushed Alonso past the Renault in Abu Dhabi.
He was beating them with a worse engine, we can dress it up as much as we like but if Renault wanted to match Honda's reliability they could afford to run even more conservatively that what they were. Just making it to the end is only half the problem.

Increases in power and competitiveness comes with constant re-adjustments to the ERS side and turbo etc..that you are assuming Honda will face no issues with. Only Mercedes have managed this so far to any extent. What in Honda's re-introduction has you convinced they'll do better than Ferrari or Renault on this front? Their factory to track correlation has been infamously poor so far I'm afraid.

When Honda can match or surpass Renault in competitiveness we can boast about reliability but until we have outright performance then reliability alone isn't particularly impressive considering the lower performance level. I don't care if we detonate every second GP next year if we're matching Renault output throughout.

There's being pessimistic and there's being a realist. Every winter for 3 years I've heard this and that reason as to why they're going to get it right and surpass Renault and I'm still waiting.

I'm just done with getting my hopes up until I see outright performance,that's all.

aral
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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This thread is going off topic and it is straying from the STR13 and discussing Mclaren, Red Bull etc. If you want to discuss teams, there are team threads but please try and stay on topic on a car thread.

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etusch
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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Some say " if honda pu will be close to renault in 2018". It's already done in 2017. Maybe it will be same in 2018 but this means Renault developed better than Honda, otherwise Honda will catch or beat. Honda's aim is not Renault but this don't mean they can achieve what they had aimed. I expect all PU will be closer to each other in 2018.
Toro Rosso has better chassis than Sauber and Haas and I expect it will be better next year. So they can beat Williams and Force İndia too if they can do a good job. This season mclaren showed us a chassis good enough can fight mercedes powered williams and FI with current Honda engine. I think Toro Rosso is not far away from mclaren especially first part of season. So they can be a good midpack team with a better season start in terms of chassis and better development rate during the season, with a better Honda PU concentrated only Toro Rosso.
"They [the engines] are completely different," Key told Motorsport.com. "It's a very nicely packaged engine, but the whole power unit is a different architecture.

"It doesn't drop into the same space. There's quite a bit of car layout work that has to be done to adapt to it."

Key says it was important not to waste the aero work that had already been done for 2018.

"We try and stick to a rule that, if a car has already been in a development process for a while, not to upset any major items such as aero surfaces and that sort of thing, so we're not starting from scratch in too many areas.

"We've adapted the car under the skin as best we can. And that's led to quite a different approach to the chassis design, to the way the gearbox works, and so on. We've carried over the concepts and developed them further from this year's car."

The gearbox, which is designed by STR but uses internals from Red Bull Technology, will also be new, and shorter than its predecessor.

"Its layout and its size is different for this engine, compared to what we have this year. I think the concept is the same, but the architecture is different.

"Some internals will carry over, some will be changed, some will be bespoke to the STR box. Otherwise it will be pretty close to what we've been running."
Maybe shorter gearbox will cause shorter car for STH and this may give us a surprise at monaco.

roon
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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I think TR might be better able to supply the chassis that Honda wants. Before, it was Honda designing the engine that McLaren wanted.

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FrukostScones
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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It will just a compromise with spacers if necessary.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

roon
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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FrukostScones wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:15 pm
It will just a compromise with spacers if necessary.
What?

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mclaren111
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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roon wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:02 pm
FrukostScones wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:15 pm
It will just a compromise with spacers if necessary.
What?
Agreed. Nothing is that easy in F1 :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:

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FrukostScones
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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https://www.f1technical.net/news/21470? ... 2fbca6ffcf

So they just take the PU and try to put into their design concept. Will be ugly in 2018. Spacers everywhere :mrgreen: .In 2019 they can work on an optimal trade off between PU and chassis constraints.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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HPD
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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I also understand that.
If there is any benefit that the Honda PU can bring in packaging, we will not see it. Why has TR already defined its design route with the PU Renault?

It will be a Frankenstein :lol:

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etusch
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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I think what they found or developed by their (TRosso) aero work and what they had designed is about shape, not about size. So they can use their desing as smaller parts/pack. This may cause Toro Rosso to live what Honda has lived with transition from single cylinder to six. :mrgreen:
Last edited by etusch on Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dren
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:21 pm
I also understand that.
If there is any benefit that the Honda PU can bring in packaging, we will not see it. Why has TR already defined its design route with the PU Renault?

It will be a Frankenstein :lol:
There is a lot of support systems that have to be moved around based on the Honda PU layout. That's not to say the TR can't make use of a tightly packaged PU with their aero design. The 2019 car should utilize any benefits better, with input back to Honda, but the car this year should still see some benefits.
Honda!

Zynerji
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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dren wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:41 pm
HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:21 pm
I also understand that.
If there is any benefit that the Honda PU can bring in packaging, we will not see it. Why has TR already defined its design route with the PU Renault?

It will be a Frankenstein :lol:
There is a lot of support systems that have to be moved around based on the Honda PU layout. That's not to say the TR can't make use of a tightly packaged PU with their aero design. The 2019 car should utilize any benefits better, with input back to Honda, but the car this year should still see some benefits.
I think the article was talking more about the sizing of the heat exchangers for the aero surfaces. If the lump is smaller, it shouldn't matter if the engine cover doesn't change to shrink wrap.

That being said, adjusting for the ancillaries should be straight forward. Unless they found some trick solutions around the Renault installation, and they have to re-think those to not lose the advantages that they bring.

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HPD
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Re: Toro Rosso STR13 Speculation Thread

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Ok, I'm understanding. Thanks guys