Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Big Tea » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:40 pm

jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:12 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:37 pm
JasonF1 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:21 pm

Could Mercedes be using a passive rear wheel steering?
All teams use passive rear wheel steering, have for decades
How? Suspension geometry turning the wheels in compression or something more devious? I've never heard of this before, at least, nothing credible thus far
Could this be in the same vein as the Mclaren 3rd peddle?
Drag the left side, it turns left. Drive the right side harder, it turns left
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:57 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:25 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pm


I have my reason why I think it is designed for heating.. I am glad to be proven wrong, but lets work it out scientifically.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13881 ... d-mercedes
Erm... that's just an article from a Journo. Are you new here? haha.
But seriously though, there are easier ways to cool the rim.

jh199
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by jh199 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am

PhillipM wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:22 pm
jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:12 pm
How? Suspension geometry turning the wheels in compression or something more devious? I've never heard of this before, at least, nothing credible thus far
That and changes under load. It's not exactly rocket science.
Whoops, completely read over 'passive' in your post #-o. I thought you were implying more of a conspiracy.

Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards. Helping the car rotate in the same why supercar rear wheel steering works. This would, I'd think, make the car incredibly unstable at the rear though as the cornering speed increases. I'm still convinced that this rumor is just hot air though. Mercedes has just been getting their setups right on an already near perfect car.

garyjpaterson
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by garyjpaterson » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:01 pm

jh199 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am
Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards.
Wtf!? A tilting gearbox? wow.

Whats wrong with just designing in some bumpsteer? Its so simple and adjustable...

turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by turbof1 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:17 pm

This topic does not extend to conjecture about Ferrari's "dissapeared performance". We will remove any message which does not has the W09's hardware at its core of the subject.

jh199
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by jh199 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:24 pm

garyjpaterson wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:01 pm
jh199 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am
Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards.
Wtf!? A tilting gearbox? wow.

Whats wrong with just designing in some bumpsteer? Its so simple and adjustable...
Yea its totally riciculous but Ive heard worse before. I figured if articles are going to pop up about this rear wheel steering there must be something more devious than just some simple suspension geometry tricks.

wesley123
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by wesley123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:36 pm

jh199 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:24 pm
garyjpaterson wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:01 pm
jh199 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am
Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards.
Wtf!? A tilting gearbox? wow.

Whats wrong with just designing in some bumpsteer? Its so simple and adjustable...
Yea its totally riciculous but Ive heard worse before. I figured if articles are going to pop up about this rear wheel steering there must be something more devious than just some simple suspension geometry tricks.
I think the article is more from a high concentration of NaCl in the authors body
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Jolle
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Jolle » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:54 pm

Looking at the rear of the W09 it doesn't look like they did something with a moving gearbox but rather something quite simple. It looks like, same as at the front, they gave mechanical grip and the geometry of the wishbones, pull and pushrods, etc, a less compromised design then other teams, allowing them to be more precise and have a softer rear, helping with low speed grip.

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PhillipM » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:46 pm

jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:12 pm
Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards. Helping the car rotate in the same why supercar rear wheel steering works. This would, I'd think, make the car incredibly unstable at the rear though as the cornering speed increases. I'm still convinced that this rumor is just hot air though. Mercedes has just been getting their setups right on an already near perfect car.
No point, you'd just make the mountings for the tie rods linked together and then make the thing compliant, you don't need anything silly like 'tilting gearboxes' or the other stuff the other author was coming up with.

This is something that keeps getting dredged up by clueless hack 'tech bloggers' every year - we had the exact same accusation at the beginning of the year and last year. They never seem to realise everyone is using passive rear steering.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:17 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:57 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:25 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pm


I have my reason why I think it is designed for heating.. I am glad to be proven wrong, but lets work it out scientifically.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13881 ... d-mercedes
Erm... that's just an article from a Journo. Are you new here? haha.
But seriously though, there are easier ways to cool the rim.
Prove it's for heating the tyres if you're so sure..
:roll:
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jh199
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by jh199 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:30 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:46 pm
jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:12 pm
Anyway, the only thing I would think they could get away with is letting the front of the gearbox tilt outwards a bit mid-corner. With the suspension arms mounted on the gearbox, an outward tilt could pull the front of the rear wheel inboards. Helping the car rotate in the same why supercar rear wheel steering works. This would, I'd think, make the car incredibly unstable at the rear though as the cornering speed increases. I'm still convinced that this rumor is just hot air though. Mercedes has just been getting their setups right on an already near perfect car.
No point, you'd just make the mountings for the tie rods linked together and then make the thing compliant, you don't need anything silly like 'tilting gearboxes' or the other stuff the other author was coming up with.

This is something that keeps getting dredged up by clueless hack 'tech bloggers' every year - we had the exact same accusation at the beginning of the year and last year. They never seem to realise everyone is using passive rear steering.
True, im not saying that twisting the gearbox is whats going on or even something that is feasible. I was thinking anything that would allow the forward tie rods to push and pull the tires a bit would allow rotation around a pivot in the upright. I figured that since the tie rods can be mounted on the gearbox, let the gearbox rotate a bit and allow these tie rods to be moved inboard and outboard, effectively steering the rear wheels ever so slightly.

But I vote we move on and pretend I never even mentioned this :D

Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Big Tea » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:41 pm

So anyone know for sure 'split torque' is not legal?
Driving the outside wheel more than the inside wheel could be a considerable advantage on tight corners, not sure about in general though
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Blaze1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Blaze1 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:37 pm

Isn't that exactly what all the differentials up and down the grid have been doing for a very long time now?

Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Big Tea » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:09 pm

Blaze1 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:37 pm
Isn't that exactly what all the differentials up and down the grid have been doing for a very long time now?
I believe so, is that not 'steering' (assist) with the rear wheels?
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Dipesh1995
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Dipesh1995 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:11 pm

Image