Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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aral wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 pm
And in both GPs they were off pace and had tyre problems !
Except in Mexico it was the front tires (front left, in particular). And the problem was graining. Not blistering. Car was sliding around all over the place.

Merc couldn't get enough heat into the front tires. They couldn't get them switched on.

Whereas other teams made it through the graining process, Mercedes could not shake it.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/3205249/

Polite
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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They didt use them in Austin = the got blistering on rear axle and 1 pit more
They didt use them in Mexico = the only car to suffer graining on the rear axle and 1 pit more

We will see if the will use them next race, but i dont think really.
Also Whiting is writing a tecnical directive on it for 2019.

We will wait for the 3rd example to have a real prove maybe.

bosyber
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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I think we saw so clearly that Mercedes weren't able to turn on the tyres (indeed seemingly the front tyres being too cool, so not overheating of the rears) because they were initially at the front, and dropped;

Ferrari probably couldn't get the hypersofts to work great on Saturday, hence they were behind; Haas seems to have had a car issue, but their tyres weren't doing great either. In fact, I'm not quite convinced the Red Bulls were all that happy, just happier than almost anyone, so enough to allow Verstappen to win. The track started dirty, and then it was cleaned by torrential the rain, but that also removed any rubber that had been laid down, making it very green again. Everybody suffered from that, but, as at the start of the year, seems in these circumstances, Mercedes suffered more than most.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Polite wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:32 am
They didt use them in Austin = the got blistering on rear axle and 1 pit more
They didt use them in Mexico = the only car to suffer graining on the rear axle and 1 pit more

We will see if the will use them next race, but i dont think really.
Also Whiting is writing a tecnical directive on it for 2019.

We will wait for the 3rd example to have a real prove maybe.
Also in both races Pirelli threw a last minute minimum tyre pressure increase. As the teams prefer to run low pressures for grip, increased pressures reduce grip which increases any tendancy to grain etc. I think the problem Mercedes have (that Ferrari and RedBull don't) is down to the difference in rake and aero philosophies. Their lower rear end means they have to run the rear stiffer and this hurts rear grip. It will be interesting to see if the aero regs change this winter lets them change philosophy.
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Polite
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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You are right Justafun, in 2 of 3 gps there was also a last night change in pressures. 1 gp for 4 wheels and 1 gp for the rear axle

notice that AMG got massive graining on 4 wheels last gp, while pressures changed only for the rear tyres. And sure, Amg was the only one with graining on rears. But they claim for front problems only for the front left tyre... thats strange, no?

sorry for poor english btw

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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I’m reading today that Charlie Whiting has said that the Merc wheel spacers could still be open to protest. How can it be that the FIA have cleared it and the Mexico stewards cleared it, yet there is no definitive legalality status given to them? I understand the Mexico stewards only have jurisdiction for that race, but isn’t there a full time steward that could have jurisdiction for all races? It just seems strange to me that it can be deemed legal by the governing body, yet questions still exist. This has been a general complaint of mine about how the regulations are enforced/policed in F1.

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Phil
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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As was said earlier, the FIA gave an opinion and the stewards did too (for that particular race, in Mexico). That was a one sided talk between Mercedes and the FIA and the stewards in Mexico. Not a verdict or a decision. If it came down to a protest, then obviously, it’s a thing not only with the defendent (Mercedes) but the points/arguments of the protestee (Ferrari) would need to be considered also. Before Mercedes run the part on a race with an actual protest and verdict happening, i’m not sure there will be clarity on the subject. If Mercedes win the WCC in Brazil, i’d expect them to run it at the last race.

Or they could run it on one car perhaps.
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henry
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:32 am
I’m reading today that Charlie Whiting has said that the Merc wheel spacers could still be open to protest. How can it be that the FIA have cleared it and the Mexico stewards cleared it, yet there is no definitive legalality status given to them? I understand the Mexico stewards only have jurisdiction for that race, but isn’t there a full time steward that could have jurisdiction for all races? It just seems strange to me that it can be deemed legal by the governing body, yet questions still exist. This has been a general complaint of mine about how the regulations are enforced/policed in F1.
As far as I know it works like this:

The FIA publish the regulations, in the same way national lawmakers publish national laws.

Once published the laws are applied by the Stewards, like a first level court nationally.

The Stewards’ decisions can be appealed to a higher authority, the International Court of Appeal, like a higher level national court.

Both the Stewards and the International Court of Appeal decide each case on the basis of the regulations as published. The FIA Technical delegate can offer advice, verbally or in writing in Technical Directives, but they do not decide and the Courts can, and do on occasion, disagree with them. This is the same as national courts except that the Lawmakers tend not to be asked for advice about what they meant.

If it didn’t work like this the FIA Technical team could amend any or all of the regulations after they are published. The rules they work to say they can’t unless it’s safety related.

In the case of Mercedes wheel assemblies Mercedes have to be confident that the Stewards and the International Court of Appeal will agree with the FIA Technical Delegate. If they can win the WCC without taking that risk they will. IMO. If they think there is a risk they might lose the WCC they’ll balance that risk against the risk of being disqualified. Given that disqualified is a very large loss of points I don’t think they will use them until the WCC is secured.

Edit: I see @phil has beaten me to it.
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zokipirlo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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henry wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:08 am
In the case of Mercedes wheel assemblies Mercedes have to be confident that the Stewards and the International Court of Appeal will agree with the FIA Technical Delegate. If they can win the WCC without taking that risk they will. IMO. If they think there is a risk they might lose the WCC they’ll balance that risk against the risk of being disqualified. Given that disqualified is a very large loss of points I don’t think they will use them until the WCC is secured.

Edit: I see @phil has beaten me to it.
But they were running it on three races with three wins, which means Lewis got 75 points. If it's an illegal solution then was illegal also on those races meaning WDC should be under big question too. I don't know what is Mercedes so afraid of, they should put it on, Ferrari need to put a protest (if they want) and we will see what happens. If it's illegal Mercedes must lose all points for races where they use that solution or everything gets clear and we don't need to talk about that anymore.

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Would it not then be wise for Merc to have a partner, ie Force whatever, to protest the item and get it cleared up?
Nothing to lose as they are not using it anyway.
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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Thanks Phil and Henry for clearing that up.

Zokipirlo, it’s my understanding that there is a two hour window after the race where protests can be lodged. As these windows have expired so has the opportunity to take the 75 points. If that were not the case I could see teams protesting everything to get extra points. I can’t think of a time when a part has been deemed outside of the regulations that points were ever taken away retroactively.

bonjon1979
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:00 pm
Thanks Phil and Henry for clearing that up.

Zokipirlo, it’s my understanding that there is a two hour window after the race where protests can be lodged. As these windows have expired so has the opportunity to take the 75 points. If that were not the case I could see teams protesting everything to get extra points. I can’t think of a time when a part has been deemed outside of the regulations that points were ever taken away retroactively.
Correct. Once the results of the race are officially confirmed then they can not be changed. This was even true of the case where Renault cheated by having Nelson Piquet deliberately crash into the wall so Fernando Alonso could go on to win in Singapore. Officially, that's still a victory for Renault and Alonso.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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The only way to remove the points would be a McLaren-type case where the team are disqualified post hoc. I doubt the FIA would take such an action for a wheel rim that has been considered ok by the FIA's Technical Representative and the race stewards.

Even if such a removal occurred, it wouldn't be applied to the driver so Hamilton would keep his points. For him to lose out, he would need to do something like ramming his opponent in an attempt to prevent him winning (Schumacher in 1997, for example).

Ferrari's threat to protest is enough to make Mercedes cautious which is, no doubt, the aim of the threat. Ferrari will be happy to win the Constructors' Championship even if they have missed out on the Drivers' Championship.
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henry
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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zokipirlo wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:43 am
henry wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:08 am
In the case of Mercedes wheel assemblies Mercedes have to be confident that the Stewards and the International Court of Appeal will agree with the FIA Technical Delegate. If they can win the WCC without taking that risk they will. IMO. If they think there is a risk they might lose the WCC they’ll balance that risk against the risk of being disqualified. Given that disqualified is a very large loss of points I don’t think they will use them until the WCC is secured.

Edit: I see @phil has beaten me to it.
But they were running it on three races with three wins, which means Lewis got 75 points. If it's an illegal solution then was illegal also on those races meaning WDC should be under big question too. I don't know what is Mercedes so afraid of, they should put it on, Ferrari need to put a protest (if they want) and we will see what happens. If it's illegal Mercedes must lose all points for races where they use that solution or everything gets clear and we don't need to talk about that anymore.
As with many legal systems there is a statute of limitations, there is a fixed period during which protests may be made. The time limit is in the International Sporting Code, Article 13.3. That period is 30 minutes after the publication of the provisional results. If no one protests within the allowed time period then there is no case to answer.

Edit: fixed an auto correct
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

richardn
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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I wonder if the Mercedes' wheel solution tips the balance towards a low rake design, so that is why this is all very important for next year. I doubt Mercedes want to reveal exactly how much difference the wheels make by using it on just one car.