Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Last edited by Morteza on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zokipirlo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Yes, I know points will stay no matter what. But if solution is illegal, declared so by stewards and FIA afterwards, then this WDC and probably WCC will always stay in books that this championships were achieved with illegal solution on a car... I was talking more about that. Hope we get official clarification, not just rumours.

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Phil
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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These arguments can go in circles. The cars are a constant changing entity. They evolve across a season. Sometimes in areas that are deemed inapropriate/unwanted/beyond the scope or intention of the rules/illegal.

That’s why clarifications happen mid season. The T-tray (case Haas), Ferraris extra winglets mounted on the halo, the Ferrari battery saga (probably), Mercedes wheel hubs, oil burning in general (last year at Spa).

For this explicit reason, it’s good that the results stand as they may, or else you will constantly have the argument thrown around of the legality of something and entire seasons will/could be tainted.

They all do it.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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zokipirlo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:03 pm
Yes, I know points will stay no matter what. But if solution is illegal, declared so by stewards and FIA afterwards, then this WDC and probably WCC will always stay in books that this championships were achieved with illegal solution on a car... I was talking more about that. Hope we get official clarification, not just rumours.
Which stewards do you want to declare it legal/illegal? The FIA have already said their interpretation is that it is legal, the Mexico GP stewards said it was legal. So we know up to and including the Mexican GP they were legal. Why would the FIA change their position? At most I could see a technical directive if they decide to not allow that path of development but that would not be saying the solution was illegal.

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:16 pm
Which stewards do you want to declare it legal/illegal? The FIA have already said their interpretation is that it is legal, the Mexico GP stewards said it was legal. So we know up to and including the Mexican GP they were legal. Why would the FIA change their position? At most I could see a technical directive if they decide to not allow that path of development but that would not be saying the solution was illegal.
Actually, there will be a technical directive issued by Brazil which should put the issue to bed. And the FIA has said they have no intention to make the Merc solution illegal.

source: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13974 ... n-mercedes

The last quote in the article sums up the situation pretty good. (I would have added the 1,400 similarly sized holes in the brake rotors as another example :wink: ).
"There are many, many things [that affect] the aero of the car - suspension is hanging out there in the airstream, and wheels are a classic example, but their primary purpose is quite clear."

zokipirlo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:16 pm
zokipirlo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:03 pm
Yes, I know points will stay no matter what. But if solution is illegal, declared so by stewards and FIA afterwards, then this WDC and probably WCC will always stay in books that this championships were achieved with illegal solution on a car... I was talking more about that. Hope we get official clarification, not just rumours.
Which stewards do you want to declare it legal/illegal? The FIA have already said their interpretation is that it is legal, the Mexico GP stewards said it was legal. So we know up to and including the Mexican GP they were legal. Why would the FIA change their position? At most I could see a technical directive if they decide to not allow that path of development but that would not be saying the solution was illegal.
Why are they so afraid to use that in the race if it's everything so clear? It was declared legal they way their solution was presented to FIA, but there could be another way of interpretation or something hidden from our point of view which Ferrari knows and could protest on that matter. Everything is in very grey area, hope that it gets clear clarification soon. Oil burning was similar thing, Mercedes was using it for years (based on rumours, but looks like that), when Ferrari adopted it, it became illegal. This could be another thing like that.

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henry
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:38 pm


Actually, there will be a technical directive issued by Brazil which should put the issue to bed. And the FIA has said they have no intention to make the Merc solution illegal.

I’m afraid not. The technical directive offers an opinion about how to interpret the regulations. It’s a useful extra tool for Mercedes to argue their case with the stewards if there is a protest. But if the stewards disagree then they will be disqualified.

The tricky thing is that the FIA don’t always roll up their TDs into future versions of the regs but seem to leave them as case law, and out of sight of the public. That methodology provides a fertile ground for conspiracy theories.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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GPR-A
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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zokipirlo wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:43 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:16 pm
zokipirlo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:03 pm
Yes, I know points will stay no matter what. But if solution is illegal, declared so by stewards and FIA afterwards, then this WDC and probably WCC will always stay in books that this championships were achieved with illegal solution on a car... I was talking more about that. Hope we get official clarification, not just rumours.
Which stewards do you want to declare it legal/illegal? The FIA have already said their interpretation is that it is legal, the Mexico GP stewards said it was legal. So we know up to and including the Mexican GP they were legal. Why would the FIA change their position? At most I could see a technical directive if they decide to not allow that path of development but that would not be saying the solution was illegal.
Why are they so afraid to use that in the race if it's everything so clear? It was declared legal they way their solution was presented to FIA, but there could be another way of interpretation or something hidden from our point of view which Ferrari knows and could protest on that matter. Everything is in very grey area, hope that it gets clear clarification soon. Oil burning was similar thing, Mercedes was using it for years (based on rumours, but looks like that), when Ferrari adopted it, it became illegal. This could be another thing like that.
Did FIA ruled oil burning as legal, after having looked at it? Nope. But have they ruled the holes in the wheel as legal after having looked at it, yes they have. That's it. Mercedes is wary of getting the WDC and WCC party spoiled and fight it out in court to win it back. Hence they are looking at finishing the season without getting into that situation.

I mentioned this earlier, if FIA has no objection, who is going to investigate it by going to court? It's not like, Ferrari will be called in the court to look into the details of Mercedes design and then help the court understand what is illegal. It will come down to some arbitrator, along with FIA to validate the design and Mercedes would present the details to them. Both FIA and Arbitrator would have the obligation of maintaining the proprietary confidentiality of the design. Ferrari will never know the details of overall design, to question any intricate parts and if the arbitrator and the FIA (who have already ruled it legal), decides it is legal, it would stand legal.

Generally, the things that FIA decides as illegal, stand no chance in court to become legal. This one is the other way round.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:53 pm

I mentioned this earlier, if FIA has no objection, who is going to investigate it by going to court? It's not like, Ferrari will be called in the court to look into the details of Mercedes design and then help the court understand what is illegal. It will come down to some arbitrator, along with FIA to validate the design and Mercedes would present the details to them. Both FIA and Arbitrator would have the obligation of maintaining the proprietary confidentiality of the design. Ferrari will never know the details of overall design, to question any intricate parts and if the arbitrator and the FIA (who have already ruled it legal), decides it is legal, it would stand legal.
If Ferrari protest it, then they will be present at any hearing and will hear Mercedes's defence. They'll know as much as the Court does by the end of the process.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

stevesingo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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I am struggling to see how there can be sufficient airflow through the perforations in the spacer and where that air comes in to contact with the wheel to make any significant difference to tyre temperature. If they were serious about getting the air to flow through that area, they would open the perforations up some more.

There is the possibility that the spacer is there to restrict the air flow to a level that could be argued as an incidental effect on aero performance and this not attract a negative ruling from the FiA. Then we have a situation where engineering effort has gone in to a concept which is not as effective as it could be at it's stated primary purpose.

It ay be the case that Mercedes have added the spacers to reduce the aero effect to be incidental in order to get the concept approved and declared legal. Once the concept is declared legal, the spacer could be removed.

There could also be a possibility that the stated purpose is not the actual purpose, hence the reluctance to run the system in the past two races.

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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stevesingo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:06 pm
I am struggling to see how there can be sufficient airflow through the perforations in the spacer and where that air comes in to contact with the wheel to make any significant difference to tyre temperature. If they were serious about getting the air to flow through that area, they would open the perforations up some more.

There is the possibility that the spacer is there to restrict the air flow to a level that could be argued as an incidental effect on aero performance and this not attract a negative ruling from the FiA. Then we have a situation where engineering effort has gone in to a concept which is not as effective as it could be at it's stated primary purpose.

It ay be the case that Mercedes have added the spacers to reduce the aero effect to be incidental in order to get the concept approved and declared legal. Once the concept is declared legal, the spacer could be removed.

There could also be a possibility that the stated purpose is not the actual purpose, hence the reluctance to run the system in the past two races.
This could be part of the reason they are not continuing with use.
Once they have to demonstrate the concept is legal, they have to show the whole thing to other teams.
They may feel it is better hidden until next season where they can get a few more races advantage from it before disclosing to others.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Maybe they realise that they can win the WCC without it from here on. Running it would mean that a win could/would be protested by Ferrari and this would take the shine off the win. I think it's a purely marketing/PR decision.

It's also possible that next year's car is different enough from this year's - owing to the aero changes coming in - that they don't think they'll need it next year. It could just be that the device has done its job this year for long enough that they have got the points they want/need. The concept can then be dropped.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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If the directive is issued in Brazil they will most likely run. At that point it can't be protested by the other teams.

I thought they actually ran it in Mexico, it was just the conditions that screwed everything up.
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henry
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:22 pm
If the directive is issued in Brazil they will most likely run. At that point it can't be protested by the other teams.

I think you will find it can be protested. The TD, when it arrives, will be an interpretation of the regulations written in general terms. It won’t say, “this is what Mercedes do and it’s definitely legal”.

If someone protests and the Stewards disagree with the interpretation in the TD they would still risk disqualification. TDs do not have force of law.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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henry wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:23 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:22 pm
If the directive is issued in Brazil they will most likely run. At that point it can't be protested by the other teams.

I think you will find it can be protested. The TD, when it arrives, will be an interpretation of the regulations written in general terms. It won’t say, “this is what Mercedes do and it’s definitely legal”.

If someone protests and the Stewards disagree with the interpretation in the TD they would still risk disqualification. TDs do not have force of law.
A TD will often get listened to. However, if you want to fully get it legally declared, Mercedes actually has to run it and have protest lodged against it. Whether the protest gets accepted or rejected, the opposing party will then make the matter go the the FIA Court of Appeal. A binding ruling will then be made. However, technical details will also leak out then.

My guess everybody will drop the matter as soon as the TD is there. Red Bull once tried to undermine the legal power of a TD, and they lost battle. HAAS tried it too, lost it also. It's pointless to go against it, and an unnecessary lost of a loss of resources, effort and attention from everyone.
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