Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Morteza » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:38 am

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:08 am

Was there a comparison of rake between W09 and W08 in this thread? I thought this car was supposed to employ higher rake gradually, but I haven't yet seen a big difference.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Morteza » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:07 pm

Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:08 am
Was there a comparison of rake between W09 and W08 in this thread? I thought this car was supposed to employ higher rake gradually, but I haven't yet seen a big difference.
I think what they said was that they were aiming to run more rake with W09. The car isn't that much different from W08 rake wise, I think they're about the same. Maybe they are going for more rake as the season progresses (with an upgrade or something).
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:56 am

Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:08 am
Was there a comparison of rake between W09 and W08 in this thread? I thought this car was supposed to employ higher rake gradually, but I haven't yet seen a big difference.
Wolff confirmed the rake is the same. I guess if you can get a low rake floor to seal with good boundary layer control the benefit in efficiency is great. However, I think this is difficult to get right. Not saying that Mercedes hasn't got it right - they obviously have. There has only been one time in recent memory when the low rake floor didn't work and that was in Brazil 2017 when the floor bottomed out on Lewis in Q3. High rake floors obviously more resistant to bottoming out. It is easy to blame the floor for Mercedes' tyre temperature issues - people might think the aero is unstable or something.. but there is just no evidence of that.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:56 am
Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:08 am
Was there a comparison of rake between W09 and W08 in this thread? I thought this car was supposed to employ higher rake gradually, but I haven't yet seen a big difference.
Wolff confirmed the rake is the same. I guess if you can get a low rake floor to seal with good boundary layer control the benefit in efficiency is great. However, I think this is difficult to get right. Not saying that Mercedes hasn't got it right - they obviously have. There has only been one time in recent memory when the low rake floor didn't work and that was in Brazil 2017 when the floor bottomed out on Lewis in Q3. High rake floors obviously more resistant to bottoming out. It is easy to blame the floor for Mercedes' tyre temperature issues - people might think the aero is unstable or something.. but there is just no evidence of that.
No no, I was asking this completely unrelated to tyre performance, just regular aero performance. :) I am just wondering how fast they will raise the rear end, ie how fast will they be able to form stable floor-sealing flow structures.

Maybe I was expecting too much from them thinking we would already see the rear slightly raised compared to winter tests.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by !Technical » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:13 pm

Has anyone noticed an aural change in the engine maps for the W09EQP+ and the FI18 car? The downshifts started to sound very interesting from Bahrain onwards. It seems more noticable on the FI cars.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Monster Hesh » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:23 pm

!Technical wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:13 pm
Has anyone noticed an aural change in the engine maps for the W09EQP+ and the FI18 car? The downshifts started to sound very interesting from Bahrain onwards. It seems more noticable on the FI cars.
This year, even during testing Merc engines have had more gurgle than the Honda in off throttle events.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by mantikos » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:43 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:56 am
Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:08 am
Was there a comparison of rake between W09 and W08 in this thread? I thought this car was supposed to employ higher rake gradually, but I haven't yet seen a big difference.
Wolff confirmed the rake is the same. I guess if you can get a low rake floor to seal with good boundary layer control the benefit in efficiency is great. However, I think this is difficult to get right. Not saying that Mercedes hasn't got it right - they obviously have. There has only been one time in recent memory when the low rake floor didn't work and that was in Brazil 2017 when the floor bottomed out on Lewis in Q3. High rake floors obviously more resistant to bottoming out. It is easy to blame the floor for Mercedes' tyre temperature issues - people might think the aero is unstable or something.. but there is just no evidence of that.
No, to the contrary, both Wolff and the TD confirmed that there was more rake with the W09 - they didn't say how much more, just a vague "more rake". They did mention it wasn't as much as the competitors, but more than the W08.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by atanatizante » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:57 pm

Vanja #66 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
...

No no, I was asking this completely unrelated to tyre performance, just regular aero performance. :) I am just wondering how fast they will raise the rear end, ie how fast will they be able to form stable floor-sealing flow structures.

Maybe I was expecting too much from them thinking we would already see the rear slightly raised compared to winter tests.
Vanja, I read about this matter on another forum an someone said that raising the rake it`ll modify whole car`s aero stuff, but I bet you already know well about that :P ...

They`d like to do that but that involves too much time and money to spend and furthermore, they don`t have the knowledge like RB, for instance, or even Ferrari in order to do that ...

From what Vowless implied in his Pure PitWall debrief, it seems that they are focused on suspension setup and the main reason to do that is widening their tyre window operation, knowing W09 has been working properly only with medium tyre, coz this tyre is having the widest operation window from all 2018 tyre spectre.

That`s why it`ll be interesting what aero stuff they`ll bring to Barca race, coz till now they didn`t put anything significant on the car, which hiders either they`re preparing a big aero upgrade or just focusing on tyres learning at the beginning of the year, hence the mechanical side of the car ...
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by zibby43 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:35 am

mantikos wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:43 pm
No, to the contrary, both Wolff and the TD confirmed that there was more rake with the W09 - they didn't say how much more, just a vague "more rake". They did mention it wasn't as much as the competitors, but more than the W08.
I've seen these confirmations re: additional rake as well.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:56 am

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:57 pm
Vanja #66 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
...

No no, I was asking this completely unrelated to tyre performance, just regular aero performance. :) I am just wondering how fast they will raise the rear end, ie how fast will they be able to form stable floor-sealing flow structures.

Maybe I was expecting too much from them thinking we would already see the rear slightly raised compared to winter tests.
Vanja, I read about this matter on another forum an someone said that raising the rake it`ll modify whole car`s aero stuff, but I bet you already know well about that :P ...

They`d like to do that but that involves too much time and money to spend and furthermore, they don`t have the knowledge like RB, for instance, or even Ferrari in order to do that ...

From what Vowless implied in his Pure PitWall debrief, it seems that they are focused on suspension setup and the main reason to do that is widening their tyre window operation, knowing W09 has been working properly only with medium tyre, coz this tyre is having the widest operation window from all 2018 tyre spectre.

That`s why it`ll be interesting what aero stuff they`ll bring to Barca race, coz till now they didn`t put anything significant on the car, which hiders either they`re preparing a big aero upgrade or just focusing on tyres learning at the beginning of the year, hence the mechanical side of the car ...
If I remember correctly, the team said during roll out they'd raise the rake during the season gradually, or something like that. So it's gonna be interesting to see if they do that or keep it as it is.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PhillipM » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:04 am

That'd be a rather strange thing to do if so, you need to rework both the suspension, diffuser and probably bargeboards every time you start lifting it.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:03 pm

Yeah, I misremembered it seems, just looked up at some articles from then. Feeling slightly downbeat, to be honest.

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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:34 am

The rake is also designed into the chassis at least in the newer cars i have observed. In other words the raked reference plane is not parallel to the plane of the front nor rear wings nor the other "horizontal" parts on the car?

To increase the rake means all those parts of the chassis desisgned to be horizontal (most of the time) will have to be adjusted.
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+

Post by Vanja #66 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:18 am

To be honest, I don't see the point of that. The only "raked design" I've seen is on Red Bull's front wing foot plate, but only from last year, it was just as any other before that.