McLaren MCL33

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
PhillipM
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by PhillipM » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:08 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:14 pm
The McLaren one is a mored direct mechanical motion because the pull rod is more parallel to the motion of the wheel.
I'm not sure what you're looking at in the pictures but the mclaren pull rod goes forwards at a very shallow angle, the Mercedes is a far more direct load path.
There's either going to be a lot of uncontrolled compliance in the Mclaren setup or a lot of extra weight, obviously they think it's worth the slight aero benefit but time will tell.
Last edited by PhillipM on Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by Jolle » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:09 pm

DiogoBrand wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:47 pm
https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... detail.jpg
Interestingly enough, Ferrari had the same setup, yet many people believe it had better mechanical grip than Mercedes.
I think it's not the "problem" that the pickup point is on the upper wishbone, but that it's around the ⅓ ⅔ point. This means that where mercedes and ferrari have 30 mm of wheel movement, the pushrod gets "pulled" for the same amount, while at McLaren it's only pulled ⅔ of that. Ferrari also has the pull rod in line (more or less) with the wishbones while McLaren has it places so much forwards that you'll have a very odd force on there.

Not saying it's impossible, the car still drives, but I don't think it's the most ideal situation, same as with the pull rod front suspensions in '14 of some teams. Just stretching the limits of force distribution under an angle too much to be precise.

henry
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by henry » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:50 pm

The very shallow angle, and length, of the McLaren pull rod compared with say, the Ferrari, means that the motion ratio is further reduced. This means that, as others have said, the forces are higher but also the movement of elements such as dampers and inerters is reduced making it more difficult to accurately control those forces. I don’t think there is enough room around the gearbox to compensate for this with longer levers on the bell cranks etc.
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by Bisonas » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:46 pm

Well, no matter how the suspension will perform, or how fast and reliable their cooling issues will be fixed, the main thing is that its up to Mclaren to address all those things.
They are no more in that helpless situation, being powerless to do anything in order to solve their biggest problem.
That alone makes me more optimistic. Not for winning a championship this year, but at least being able to compete in a much more competitive way. And we see from there where they can go with their development.

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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by DiogoBrand » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:01 pm

It's pretty easy to realize that the forces on the pullrod will be different for McLaren's solution than it is for the other teams'. But as I already stated, while this probably isn't the ideal solution in terms of mechanical grip, their objective is to compensate this with the added downforce, which is quite a common thing to do in Formula 1. Wether or not it works it's up to McLaren to find out, but the facts that they had a similar solution last season, and no one here saw a problem, and they kept it for this season, means that it shouldn't be that bad.

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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by Marco Alves » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:53 pm

DiogoBrand wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:01 pm
It's pretty easy to realize that the forces on the pullrod will be different for McLaren's solution than it is for the other teams'. But as I already stated, while this probably isn't the ideal solution in terms of mechanical grip, their objective is to compensate this with the added downforce, which is quite a common thing to do in Formula 1. Wether or not it works it's up to McLaren to find out, but the facts that they had a similar solution last season, and no one here saw a problem, and they kept it for this season, means that it shouldn't be that bad.
The solution seems to be more extreme, then perhaps the risk is greater, but perhaps the compensation too.

We will see during the season.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:40 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:41 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:14 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:33 am
https://imgr2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/M ... 151926.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWovXXsX0AAaONQ.jpg

If you look at the two solutions furthers apart, McLaren and Mercedes,

McLaren has a very large upwards force with little actual movement and a large offset, which makes it tricky on itself plus the possibility of a bit of flex in the wishbone.

Mercedes has the most straight on solution of all the teams, pulling the rod very very straight, without any force off center. Very efficient and precise.

McLaren will never have the same kind of slow corner exit grip as the Mercedes, because it's impossible to have the same kind of control. But they may have a slight advantage on high speed corners with rear stability because their diffuser has a clearer path.
The McLaren one is a mored direct mechanical motion because the pull rod is more parallel to the motion of the wheel. Alot of double wishbone street cars have the strut around this point on the control arms.
The only problem is they need a much stronger control arm in bending and their top bearing has to be very strong and durable. Good thing that they have a big single section of control arm at that point.

Remember the cars from the seventies with the rocker arm suspensions? Those were examples that your strut doesn't have to be connected close to the upright to transfer the loads.
Most double wishbone/multi-link road cars that mount the damper assembly do so to the lower control arm which is usually much bigger and stronger than the upper arm, the lower balljoint is also the one that carries all the load. The upper arm determines the toe curve along with the toe arm. With this pullrod setup the suspension is essentially installed upside down.
I have to disagree with you here. The pull rod doesnt determine the toe curve in double wishbone. The tie rod end point locations do.

If you put the geometry down to the basics the pull rod doesn't have a fixed length. It is seen a force vector alone. So it does not guide the kinematics of the wheel assembly only the dynamics of it.

If it were Macpherson strut i would believe you.
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godlameroso
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by godlameroso » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:09 am

Where is the toe link in the rear suspension on the MCL33? I only see the upper and lower wishbones, and the axle shafts.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:14 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:09 am
Where is the toe link in the rear suspension on the MCL33? I only see the upper and lower wishbones, and the axle shafts.
It has to have a toe link. It's just not in plain sight. :wink:
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

godlameroso
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by godlameroso » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:19 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:14 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:09 am
Where is the toe link in the rear suspension on the MCL33? I only see the upper and lower wishbones, and the axle shafts.
It has to have a toe link. It's just not in plain sight. :wink:
Is it on the upper A arm or lower? I wish they showed a decent picture of the suspension because all the pics focus on aero bits.

You need at least 3 pick up points on the upright, if there was a picture that showed the control arms and the upright we could easily guess where the pick up points and how the suspension works.

I think they're doing this essentially, but upside down
Image

The reason I think this is because the upper arm is much more substantial than the lower wishbone.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Pany
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by Pany » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:21 am

Bisonas wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:46 pm
Well, no matter how the suspension will perform, or how fast and reliable their cooling issues will be fixed, the main thing is that its up to Mclaren to address all those things.
They are no more in that helpless situation, being powerless to do anything in order to solve their biggest problem.
That alone makes me more optimistic. Not for winning a championship this year, but at least being able to compete in a much more competitive way. And we see from there where they can go with their development.
The more angle, the more displacement of damper you get. But indeed forse are higher

mclaren111
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by mclaren111 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:24 am

Image


Nice close-up of FW.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:57 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:19 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:14 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:09 am
Where is the toe link in the rear suspension on the MCL33? I only see the upper and lower wishbones, and the axle shafts.
It has to have a toe link. It's just not in plain sight. :wink:
Is it on the upper A arm or lower? I wish they showed a decent picture of the suspension because all the pics focus on aero bits.

You need at least 3 pick up points on the upright, if there was a picture that showed the control arms and the upright we could easily guess where the pick up points and how the suspension works.

I think they're doing this essentially, but upside down
http://blog.gotuning.com/wp-content/upl ... s-0218.jpg

The reason I think this is because the upper arm is much more substantial than the lower wishbone.
That suspension has the toe link behind the lower main arm - you can just see it.
For the McLaren the toe link is hidden in the sheath covering the drive-shaft.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

PlatinumZealot
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:58 pm

New McLaren is too complicated and engine changes take four hours according this article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... -alonso%2F
"We will not come under three hours with more practice," regrets Boullier. This is the price to pack the components in the tail in the smallest possible space. The problem also has other teams. Their cars just do not break that often.

The many defects have McLaren a weakness of the car shown. The MCL33 is too complicated under the fairing. "It was really mostly just small problems. But they always cost us a lot of time, "task manager Matt Morris admits.
Good news or bad news?
McLaren sees himself on a par with Renault and HaasF1. "Had Fernando not had to break the lap, he would have driven 1.18,6 minutes. On old Hypersoft tires, "calculates Boullier. His impression: "Front drive Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari. The group behind it has moved closer together. And we're in the middle of it all. "Renault had released the performance for the first time on the last day, which will also be available in Melbourne. That should be questioned after the turbocharger defect again.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

godlameroso
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Re: McLaren MCL33

Post by godlameroso » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:12 pm

That's interesting, thanks, I wonder if they have the mounting on the middle of the upright or in a more traditional location.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee