Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:22 am

PhillipM wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:25 pm
And an article with a clear drawing from on of the old Red Bulls showing the exact same thing:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... 1/1384526/

Mclaren had to alter the suspension on the MCL32 or 33 I think because the FIA brought the limits down and their setup was originally even more extreme.
I already acknowledged this. Two steps ahead of you.

from the the article -
So depending on its location front to rear, you can alter the amount the pushrod effectively lengthens or shortens as the upright goes through its arc with steering lock varying. The more lock, the lower the car will get.

The only negative could be that it can alter the steering weight through the varying steering locks and drivers like Kimi Raikkonen don’t like this as they use the weight of the steering to judge the balance of the car.
Check my post about it.. You will see I also suggested away to get rid of the negative effect.
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PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by PhillipM » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:50 am

I read what you put, but it's nothing to do with bump-steer. And your theory about some sort of sliding cam would completely negate the entire point of them doing this. They do this deliberately to lower the wing to the floor when cornering, the last thing you'd want in there was some sort of sliding mechanism.

holeindalip
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by holeindalip » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:28 am

just throwing this out there, on the pushrod could it be a sensor measuring deflection of the tire? the way its angled goes right inline with the edge of the tire...

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by GPR-A » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 pm

Link -> How many Mercedes experiments: the W10 simulates the rear steering wheels
The silver arrow in the first test session in Barcelona tried the basic set-up: the front was chosen for the push rod strut, while behind it worked on four steering wheels and the height from the ground. The real Mercedes will appear next week.

ME4ME
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by ME4ME » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:32 pm

I think the media have fallen into the trap of reading too much into lap times in the first week of testing.

The first thing that James Allison said when the W10 was shown to the world was that they had been working on tire-life; handling the tires better throughout the race at every race. Extending tire life will inevitably mean putting less (exess) energy into them.

Testing week #1 was performed at Barcelona at what? 17 degrees Celsius?
A car which "activates" the tires more will look better in such cool conditions and will more likely overheat them when in warmer conditions.

A car which is more benign on the tires will look worse in cool conditions and perform more optimally in warmer conditions.

When arriving in Australia, all of the sudden you've got a performance slide between those different cars worth several tenths of a second.

bucker
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by bucker » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:37 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 pm
Link -> How many Mercedes experiments: the W10 simulates the rear steering wheels
The silver arrow in the first test session in Barcelona tried the basic set-up: the front was chosen for the push rod strut, while behind it worked on four steering wheels and the height from the ground. The real Mercedes will appear next week.
So if I understand they are trying to copy Rimac torque vetoring. To combine all systems to work together to achieve such thing, it would be massive step forward. I can't imagine any team to copy this for 2019. Maybe Ferrari and Red Bull for 2020.

Zynerji
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Zynerji » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:49 pm

Isn't rear wheel steering expressly forbidden? Should be an easy protest to win.

If they control front end droop in the front suspension, they can control this to enforce the regulation on the rear.
Last edited by Zynerji on Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by PhillipM » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:50 pm

I'm not sure where you pulled that from, but no.

Zynerji
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Zynerji » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:50 pm
I'm not sure where you pulled that from, but no.
So, 4 wheel steering is allowed?

Mr.G
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Mr.G » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:55 pm

No, you two replied in the same time to the same post.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:03 pm

I believe if you read the vagaries of the rules, active 4-wheel stealing is prevented passive is not. A lot of the teams have been doing a small amount of it passively for a while, the question is to what extent is Merc working towards.

LM10
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by LM10 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:31 pm

Seems I was not completely wrong with what I was seeing. The Mercedes looked like it’s rear was sliding in fast corners, but it was different from typical oversteer. So maybe that was this mentioned rear steering?

GrizzleBoy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by GrizzleBoy » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 pm

Does anyone remember Johnny Herbert's remarks on Sky F1 about the Mercedes at the American GP last year?

He was doing a pole lap analysis (i think) and he did a slow motion and zoom in of the Mercedes taking the tight, slow-ish final corner and remarked cheekily, vaguely but very suggestively about the way the rear of the car was "rotating".

He didn't go into details, but he just found it "interesting" the way the car was rotating.

I really wish I could find a clip. Anyway, If this is really a thing on the met, it seems like it wouldn't be something completely new.

djones
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by djones » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:18 pm

If they had some form of rear steering, wouldn't it make a massive difference?

As in like seconds a lap and would be incredibly obvious there was 'cheating' going on.

roon
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by roon » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:44 pm

bucker wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:37 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 pm
Link -> How many Mercedes experiments: the W10 simulates the rear steering wheels
The silver arrow in the first test session in Barcelona tried the basic set-up: the front was chosen for the push rod strut, while behind it worked on four steering wheels and the height from the ground. The real Mercedes will appear next week.
So if I understand they are trying to copy Rimac torque vetoring. To combine all systems to work together to achieve such thing, it would be massive step forward. I can't imagine any team to copy this for 2019. Maybe Ferrari and Red Bull for 2020.
Interesting to think about. Hydraulic braking balance is supposed to be symmetrical side-to-side. Front:rear balance can be adjusted. Maybe roll could be an input used to passively steer the rear wheels. Optionally, use heave to prevent the effect beyond a certain degree of squat.

9.9 Torque transfer systems :
9.9.1 Any system or device the design of which is capable of transferring or diverting torque from a
slower to a faster rotating wheel is not permitted.
9.9.2 Any device which is capable of transferring torque between the principal axes of rotation of the
two front wheels is prohibited.
Might there be a way to distribute torque so long as it is not consuming torque that would have otherwise been used by a slower wheel?


Transmission regs in their entirety (2019):

ARTICLE 9 : TRANSMISSION SYSTEM
9.1 Transmission types :
No transmission system may permit more than two wheels to be driven.
9.2 Clutch control :
The following applies only to the main drivetrain clutch or clutches, any clutch used exclusively
as part of an ERS is exempt.
9.2.1 If multiple clutch operating devices are used, they must all have the same mechanical travel
characteristics and be mapped identically.
9.2.2 Designs which allow specific points along the travel range of the clutch operating device to be
identified by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.
9.2.3 The minimum and maximum travel positions of the clutch operating device must correspond
to the clutch fully engaged normal rest position and fully disengaged (incapable of transmitting
any useable torque) positions respectively.
9.2.4 Designs or systems which in addition to typical inherent hydraulic and mechanical properties
are designed to, or have the effect of, adjusting or otherwise influencing the amount, or rate,
of engagement being demanded by the FIA ECU, are not permitted.
9.2.5 The amount by which the clutch is engaged must be controlled solely and directly by the driver
with the exception of :
a) Stall prevention.
b) Gearshifts.
c) Bite point finder where brake pressure, wheel speed and driver clutch demand
safeguards are used.
d) De-clutch protections.
e) Drivetrain protection on the track outside of any start lockout period or immediately
following stall prevention activation only.
f) Test signals enabled only when the car is connected to the garage system.
The relationship between the clutch operating device in the cockpit and the amount of
clutch engagement may be non-linear but must remain fixed.
9.2.6 When the clutch operating device is released from its maximum travel position it must return
to its resting position within 50ms.
The maximum delay allowed, computed from the respective signals as recorded by the ADR or
ECU, between the clutch driver control input signal and the corresponding output demand
being achieved is 50ms.
9.2.7 Any device or system which notifies the driver of the amount of clutch slip or engagement is
not permitted.
9.3 Traction control :
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven
wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the
driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.
9.4 Clutch disengagement:
All cars must be fitted with a means of disengaging the clutch for a minimum of fifteen minutes
in the event of the car coming to rest with the engine stopped. This system must be in working
order throughout the Event even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or electrical systems on the
car have failed. This system must also disconnect any ERS system fitted to the car.
In order that the driver or a marshal may activate the system in less than five seconds, the
switch or button which operates it must :
a) Face upwards and be recessed into the top of the survival cell no more than 150mm
from the car centre plane.
b) Be designed in order that a marshal is unable to accidentally re-engage the clutch.
c) Be no more than 1150mm forward of the plane C-C.
d) Be marked with a letter "N" in red at least 40mm tall, with a line thickness of at least
4mm, inside a white circle of at least 50mm diameter with a red edge with a line
thickness of at least 2mm.
9.5 Gearboxes :
9.5.1 A gearbox is defined as all the parts in the drive line which transfer torque from the power unit
output shaft, as described in Article 5.3.2, to the drive shafts (the drive shafts being defined as
those components which transfer drive torque from the sprung mass to the un-sprung mass). It
includes all components whose primary purpose is for the transmission of power or mechanical
selection of gears, bearings associated with these components and the casing in which they are
housed.
9.5.2 In this context the following parts are not considered part of the gearbox and may be changed
without incurring a penalty under the F1 Sporting Regulations. If changing any of these parts
involves breaking an FIA applied seal this may be done but must be carried out under FIA
supervision :
a) The clutch assembly and the power unit output shaft, provided this is located prior to
any mechanical speed reduction from the engine.
b) The clutch actuator and clutch release bearing(s).
c) Inboard driveshaft joints and seals but not their housing if that housing is integral with
the gearbox output shaft and therefore part of the sprung mass.
d) The hydraulic system prior to the point at which it produces direct mechanical
movement of the gear selection mechanism by means of hydraulic actuator(s).
e) Oil, oil pumps, oil filters, oil seals, oil coolers and any associated hoses or pipes.
f) Electrical sensors, actuators, servo valves and wiring.
g) Any parts associated with the suspension or functioning of the sprung suspension that
are attached to the gearbox casing.
h) The rear impact structure provided it can be separated from any gearbox casing.
i) Any other component mounted to the casing whose primary purpose is unconnected
with the transmission of power or selection of gears.
9.6 Gear ratios :
9.6.1 The number of forward gear ratios must be 8.
9.6.2 Each competitor must nominate the forward gear ratios (calculated from engine crankshaft to
drive shafts) to be employed within their gearbox. These nominations must be declared to the
FIA technical delegate at or before the first Event of the Championship.
9.6.3 No forward gear ratio pair may be :
a) Less than 12mm wide when measured across the gear tooth at the root diameter or any
point 1mm above or below the root diameter. Above this area each side of the gear
teeth may be chamfered by a maximum of 10˚. In addition, a chamfer or radius not
exceeding 2.0mm may be applied to the sides and the tip of the teeth.
b) Less than 85mm between centres.
c) Less than 600g in weight (excluding any integral shaft or collar). If an integral shaft or
collar is to be excluded the mass of this may be shown by calculation assuming the gear
to be 12mm wide and the shaft geometry to be the same as that where slide on gears
are used.
9.6.4 Gear ratios must be made from steel.
9.6.5 Continuously variable transmission systems are not permitted to transmit the power of the
power unit defined in Article 5.1.
9.7 Reverse gear :
All cars must be able to be driven in reverse by the driver at any time during the Event.
9.8 Gear changing :
9.8.1 Automatic gear changes are considered a driver aid and are therefore not permitted.
For the purposes of gear changing, the clutch and power unit torque need not be under the
control of the driver.
9.8.2 Gear changing is restricted during the following periods :
One gear change is permitted after the race has started and before the car speed has reached
80km/h, provided every gear fitted to the car is capable of achieving at least 80km/h at
15,000rpm.
9.8.3 The minimum possible gear the driver is able to select must remain fixed whilst the car is
moving.
Each individual gear change must be separately initiated by the driver and, within the
mechanical constraints of the gearbox; the requested gear must be engaged immediately
unless over-rev protection is used to reject the gear shift request. Once a gear change request
has been accepted no further requests may be accepted until the first gear change has been
completed.
Multiple gear changes may only be made under Article 5.22 or when a shift to gearbox neutral
is made following a request from the driver.
If an over-rev protection strategy is used this may only prevent engagement of the target gear,
it must not induce a delay greater than 50ms. If a gear change is refused in this way,
engagement may only follow a new and separate request made by the driver.
Any de-bounce time used to condition driver gear change requests must be fixed.
9.8.4 The maximum permitted duration for down changes and up changes is 300ms and 200ms
respectively. The maximum permitted delay for the latter is 80ms from the time of the driver
request to the original gear being disengaged.
The duration of a gear change is defined as the time from the request being made to the point
at which all gear change processes are terminated. If for any reason the gear change cannot be
completed in that time the car must be left in neutral or the original gear.
9.8.5 Distance channel or track position is not considered an acceptable input to gearbox control.
9.9 Torque transfer systems :
9.9.1 Any system or device the design of which is capable of transferring or diverting torque from a
slower to a faster rotating wheel is not permitted.
9.9.2 Any device which is capable of transferring torque between the principal axes of rotation of the
two front wheels is prohibited.
Last edited by roon on Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.