Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:20 pm

izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:44 pm
The rears were prone to OVERheating, why would they try to add heat with a texture? And why do you think those extra holes appeared in the spokes, front and rear? that have a mysterious little hole leading into them from the axle. are you going to acknowledge they exist?

cos vortices have some great qualities, and one of them is they attract each other. so if you flow a big fat vortex past a wake what's gonna happen? If you flow a small, fast jet of air through an orifice what happens? when the orifice is rotating :idea:
Unless something has changed recently and I didn't notice that the spacer and extra holes have only been seen on the rear tires. Imo, the spacer and the holes through the rim exist for one purpose, and that' to thermally isolate the rim from the hub. The rears where overheating because they couldn't adequately control how, when, and how much heat was getting into them.


I'd put this question to you! what benefit does generating vortexes in rear wheels have? They aren't going to help seal the floor, and their is nothing down stream from them, so all they would be doing is causing drag.

mantikos
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by mantikos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:52 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:10 pm
mantikos wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:58 pm
I agree its not the best analogy BUT, I also don't think that the small protrusions on the rim rise above the boundary layer to generate a meaningful vortex. The answer to everything can not be a vortex.
I didn't suggest anything about vortexes, I'm suggesting that are there purely to aid in heat transfer into the rim.
Well I agree with you 100% then and 100% disagree with the assertion that they are there for vortices

izzy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by izzy » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:20 pm
Unless something has changed recently and I didn't notice that the spacer and extra holes have only been seen on the rear tires. Imo, the spacer and the holes through the rim exist for one purpose, and that' to thermally isolate the rim from the hub. The rears where overheating because they couldn't adequately control how, when, and how much heat was getting into them.

I'd put this question to you! what benefit does generating vortexes in rear wheels have? They aren't going to help seal the floor, and their is nothing down stream from them, so all they would be doing is causing drag.
The front wheels have the extra teardrop holes in the spokes too, tho yes I agree it can be hard to know which wheel the photo is of sometimes, but still if they have those holes why wouldn't they energise them with the jets from the brake duct? as they have that technology

The spacer, well it's not too central to my opening point except that it's clearly just an insulator and was a great diversion. The spacers vent immediately, they're not part of the same system as the holes through into the spokes. The holes into the spokes are there, you can see in my first post, so whatever explanation we come up with has to account for them

A vortex from the rear wheels will be to pull that tyre wake outwards and create a lower pressure and less messed up area for the edge of the diffuser flow and the flow that's come round the sidepods. Not that i'm an aero, but the whole effect of the sidepods flow is to entrain the diffuser flow as it exits, apparently, that's how important the exit of the diffuser is, and we can see how the diffuser flares outwards at the back, towards that wake area behind the tyre

And coming back to the texture issue, if they wanted to cool the rim that's the obvious and simplest way to do it, isn't it. And how do we explain a warming texture in one part and cooling fins in another part? And all this is happening at the same time as outwash suddenly was going to get massively cut, and also magically Mercedes seem to have suffered less than the others.

They have a non-outwashing front wing, relatively, but their floor is working better than the others and it's the floor they're desperate to keep the front tyre wake away from

Plus iirc at the end of last year their rears weren't lasting especially better but this year with the new suspension geometry they are

So, I have a few dots to join up i think :)

dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:47 pm

izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
The spacer, well it's not too central to my opening point except that it's clearly just an insulator and was a great diversion. The spacers vent immediately, they're not part of the same system as the holes through into the spokes. The holes into the spokes are there, you can see in my first post, so whatever explanation we come up with has to account for them
IMO, the holes and spacer/insulator are acting together to thermally isolate the rim and wheel from hear transfer from the hub.


izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
A vortex from the rear wheels will be to pull that tyre wake outwards and create a lower pressure and less messed up area for the edge of the diffuser flow and the flow that's come round the sidepods. Not that i'm an aero, but the whole effect of the sidepods flow is to entrain the diffuser flow as it exits, apparently, that's how important the exit of the diffuser is, and we can see how the diffuser flares outwards at the back, towards that wake area behind the tyre
The holes are tiny,I cant see them being able to get enough flow through the holes to amount to anything.

izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
And coming back to the texture issue, if they wanted to cool the rim that's the obvious and simplest way to do it, isn't it. And how do we explain a warming texture in one part and cooling fins in another part?
It's an educated guess, but maybe they feel they have more control over the heating of the tires by excluding the hub as a heat source.


izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
And all this is happening at the same time as outwash suddenly was going to get massively cut, and also magically Mercedes seem to have suffered less than the others.

They have a non-outwashing front wing, relatively, but their floor is working better than the others and it's the floor they're desperate to keep the front tyre wake away from
They run a lot less rake than other teams, and its much easier to seal a low rake car than it is a high rake one.

mantikos
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by mantikos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:54 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:47 pm
izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
The spacer, well it's not too central to my opening point except that it's clearly just an insulator and was a great diversion. The spacers vent immediately, they're not part of the same system as the holes through into the spokes. The holes into the spokes are there, you can see in my first post, so whatever explanation we come up with has to account for them
IMO, the holes and spacer/insulator are acting together to thermally isolate the rim and wheel from hear transfer from the hub.


izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
A vortex from the rear wheels will be to pull that tyre wake outwards and create a lower pressure and less messed up area for the edge of the diffuser flow and the flow that's come round the sidepods. Not that i'm an aero, but the whole effect of the sidepods flow is to entrain the diffuser flow as it exits, apparently, that's how important the exit of the diffuser is, and we can see how the diffuser flares outwards at the back, towards that wake area behind the tyre
The holes are tiny,I cant see them being able to get enough flow through the holes to amount to anything.

izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
And coming back to the texture issue, if they wanted to cool the rim that's the obvious and simplest way to do it, isn't it. And how do we explain a warming texture in one part and cooling fins in another part?
It's an educated guess, but maybe they feel they have more control over the heating of the tires by excluding the hub as a heat source.


izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm
And all this is happening at the same time as outwash suddenly was going to get massively cut, and also magically Mercedes seem to have suffered less than the others.

They have a non-outwashing front wing, relatively, but their floor is working better than the others and it's the floor they're desperate to keep the front tyre wake away from
They run a lot less rake than other teams, and its much easier to seal a low rake car than it is a high rake one.
Agree 100% with dans79's analysis

izzy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by izzy » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:37 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:47 pm

IMO, the holes and spacer/insulator are acting together to thermally isolate the rim and wheel from hear transfer from the hub.

The holes are tiny,I cant see them being able to get enough flow through the holes to amount to anything.

It's an educated guess, but maybe they feel they have more control over the heating of the tires by excluding the hub as a heat source.

They run a lot less rake than other teams, and its much easier to seal a low rake car than it is a high rake one.
alright i'll take these one by one :)

Yes the spacer is to thermally isolate the wheel from the hub and brake disc, but the spacer vents to the outside of the wheel hub whereas the little 'jet holes' are on the inside, so they can't act together.

Yes the holes are tiny but the idea is to entrain a bigger a flow of air, with the fast jet into the bigger teardrop holes in the spokes, that we can see. With a high pressure jet firing through it, the wheel spoke flows more air

The dimples warm the wheel rim, or they would if both sides were dimpled :wink: , that'd engage the hub as a heat source not exclude it. But they definitely would stir the air into rotating around the cake tin

I see your point about the rake but we don't really know what the rakes are at speed do we, we only get them at a standstill then they flatten out. The big difference is in slow corners, and keeping the wake out from under the floor was one of the things James Allison was going on about in his comparison video.

So we have ten or whatever rotating flows through those inner spoke holes, energised from the brake ducts, plus rotating flows through the main spokes with one or two stirring features. We had some controversy about them from other teams and we have that outwash-esque performance, and the contradictions in the heating theories, so for me that says vortices, combining into one mother vortex that sucks the tyre wake's many chaotic vortices to outboard

also we know teams like to flow air through the wheels, with the blown axles that are now banned. 8) :D

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:45 pm

Do the rules prevent shaped wheel spokes? I'd have thought a blade shaped spoke would be a better way of pumping air through the wheel to control wake.
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dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by dans79 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:33 am

izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:37 pm
also we know teams like to flow air through the wheels, with the blown axles that are now banned. 8) :D
They only did that on the front axles, because it helped get "dirty" air away from the car so it didn't hinder aerodynamic elements downstream. not to mention the orifices in question were substantially larger than the ones on the Mercedes rear rims.

roon
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by roon » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:45 pm
Do the rules prevent shaped wheel spokes? I'd have thought a blade shaped spoke would be a better way of pumping air through the wheel to control wake.
Effectively ruled out by the wording of the regs. The same wheel design has to be used on both sides of the car. Which would mean inflow on one side, outflow on the other.

Rules aside, these small diameter wheel spokes move at approx 1/2 ground speed or air speed. The effect may be limited.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:46 am

roon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 am

Effectively ruled out by the wording of the regs.
Ok, thanks. Figured it would be or they'd be doing it. Small effects are still exploited if they there is a loophole.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

izzy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:24 am

dans79 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:33 am
izzy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:37 pm
also we know teams like to flow air through the wheels, with the blown axles that are now banned. 8) :D
They only did that on the front axles, because it helped get "dirty" air away from the car so it didn't hinder aerodynamic elements downstream. not to mention the orifices in question were substantially larger than the ones on the Mercedes rear rims.
Yes exactly, this shows it:
Image
there's a good discussion about it on http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/wheel_nut_blown.html, a bit old but the principles will be the same, and the same applies to the little jet holes, teardrop holes, stirring texture and mini fan blades on the WO10 :idea:

izzy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:31 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:46 am
roon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 am

Effectively ruled out by the wording of the regs.
Ok, thanks. Figured it would be or they'd be doing it. Small effects are still exploited if they there is a loophole.
i had wondered about this too, I was thinking the blades would stall with so little airflow, as the disc is 11" inside the 13" wheel, and the cake tin even bigger, i didn't know about roon's rule that they have to be the same both sides either, that's quite a cunning rule. And what are they gonna get up to with the 18" wheels??? Mercedes will have a little project on that already

atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by atanatizante » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:53 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:16 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:02 pm
One thing that impressed me during the race was how Vettel was able to gain 0.2-0.3 secs instantly right after the hairpin...like he had tons of traction!
Even when Hamilton didn't lock his tires and Vettel went a bit wide...he was still able to gain these 0.2-0.3 secs!!
I expected Mercedes to be fast out of the hairpin since they have great traction, as was seen in Monaco,...stay close out of the hairpin and with DRS maybe attack at the end of the straight! But it seemed they had such poor traction that when the DRS opened the gap had risen already from 0.6 to 0.9

Can anyone explain this?
In the race they gained the time not just immediately after the hairpin, as soon as the traction dependent part of the track was over they were able to deploy their ERS and pull out massively and also by the end of the straight with their low drag setup they gained like 10 kph more than Merc. The interesting part was Lewis was able to pull all that back in the rest of the track and lose it again after the hairpin
With the courtesy of Juzh 2019 Onboard Laps With Telemetry Repository (here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... AJ9wVZUP-t) just play side by side Lewis and Seb`s laps ...

You could clearly see that before turn 10 delta speed from Vettel`s rise up from 270km/h with just 3km/h more and at the same corner, Lewis reaches 280km/h and 4km/h more at 294km/h (when he hits the brakes before the corner entry) ... Then, after the hairpin Merc gets out of MGU-H juice and delta speeds could be seen just from 250km/h above, reaching between 7 and even 9km/h in their top speed ...

That exponential speed increase above 250km/h was firstly spotted by Merc in 2018 around Austria race and they never figured out ever since ...

There are many speculations on Honda PU thread about what`s the reason behind this but all converged to a better MGU-H - as zibby43 said - and maybe a special ICE mapping in which Ferrari are using so-called "party mode" aka Q3 mode just onto one or two long straights, therefore they need to do more fuel savings - confirmed by Vettel in the press conference after the race - in the race compared to Merc ...
Then also their low drag car design has a considerable role but knowing that last year they didn`t have had a low drag car seems reasonable to presume that MGU-H and ICE mappings play a bigger role instead ... my two cents :) ...
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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by atanatizante » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:25 pm

On another note, Stroll said in the press conference after the race in Canada that there is a 0.2-sec per lap advantage between spec 1 and spec.2 PU ..
Had this figure is accurate and taking into account that is race circuit related how can it be translated in HP gain?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post by zibby43 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:56 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:25 pm
On another note, Stroll said in the press conference after the race in Canada that there is a 0.2-sec per lap advantage between spec 1 and spec.2 PU ..
Had this figure is accurate and taking into account that is race circuit related how can it be translated in HP gain?
Roughly 20-30 horsepower. General rule of thumb is nearly a tenth for every 10 horsepower.