Scuderia Ferrari SF90

[keroro.90]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6nBUpOXoAEfN2m.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6nBUvUXkAA3rNJ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6nBUpfXoAAXX2M.jpg

It seems that they are trying to measure the height (i guess those are height sensors) to try to figure out what's wrong with the FW and front suspension.

[mmred]

so, do we know if the front wing stalls just at low speed?
it can be, mixed with the increase in aoa with rake
but it s a pretty normal fronw wing in the main aerea, i dont see it happening, its diferet just on the outside with benefit adverse to stall

[LM10]

so, do we know if the front wing stalls just at low speed?
it can be, mixed with the increase in aoa with rake
but it s a pretty normal fronw wing in the main aerea, i dont see it happening, its diferet just on the outside with benefit adverse to stall

If a possible stall of the front wing was the main issue Ferrari had, they would have not kept on saying that they don’t really understand what the problem is.

[mmred]

so, do we know if the front wing stalls just at low speed?
it can be, mixed with the increase in aoa with rake
but it s a pretty normal fronw wing in the main aerea, i dont see it happening, its diferet just on the outside with benefit adverse to stall

If a possible stall of the front wing was the main issue Ferrari had, they would have not kept on saying that they don’t really understand what the problem is.

Yes it would have been a too big problem...
But the rake behaviour seems indeed an area of investigation

[dans79]

it can be, mixed with the increase in aoa with rake

That's not a wise assumption. Changing the rake angle might fix the FW (if that's the issue), only to cause a different issue with the floor, or diffuser.

[mmred]

it can be, mixed with the increase in aoa with rake

That's not a wise assumption. Changing the rake angle might fix the FW (if that's the issue), only to cause a different issue with the floor, or diffuser.

First
I was sarcastic
Second
I never assumed that solution
Third
The max rake changes also from track to track, there is an upper limit not a lower one problem

[dans79]

Third
The max rake changes also from track to track, there is an upper limit not a lower one problem

Many of use on the forum are aware of this simple fact.

Every teams design philosophy has an upper limit. If All they had to do was increase rake, they would have done that already. Since they haven't and have openly admired they still aren't sure what the issue is, it's safe to assume that the fix will be a lot more complex.

[mmred]

Third
The max rake changes also from track to track, there is an upper limit not a lower one problem

Many of use on the forum are aware of this simple fact.

Every teams design philosophy has an upper limit. If All they had to do was increase rake, they would have done that already. Since they haven't and have openly admired they still aren't sure what the issue is, it's safe to assume that the fix will be a lot more complex.

Nobody say the opposite
I was the first to say it was not an aero issue when everyone was focused on fwing weeks ago
I was even contradicted by many it

It is mostly a suspension problem with effects to aero

[dans79]

I was the first to say it was not an aero issue when everyone was focused on fwing weeks ago
I was even contradicted by many it

It is mostly a suspension problem with effects to aero

I disagree, I would say its probably 70-80% aero, and the rest suspension. If it was purely or predominantly suspension, they would have fixed it by now.

[roon]

I was the first to say it was not an aero issue when everyone was focused on fwing weeks ago
I was even contradicted by many it

It is mostly a suspension problem with effects to aero

I disagree, I would say its probably 70-80% aero, and the rest suspension. If it was purely or predominantly suspension, they would have fixed it by now.

Unless it involves coarse geometry. Moving attachment points and resizing large components will incur monocoque or gearbox changes. Otherwise I agree. This is still an aero formula. It's why Red Bull have remained competitive despite their power units. If something's wrong with a car, there's a good chance it's the aero.

[mmred]

I was the first to say it was not an aero issue when everyone was focused on fwing weeks ago
I was even contradicted by many it

It is mostly a suspension problem with effects to aero

I disagree, I would say its probably 70-80% aero, and the rest suspension. If it was purely or predominantly suspension, they would have fixed it by now.

Unless it involves coarse geometry. Moving attachment points and resizing large components will incur monocoque or gearbox changes. Otherwise I agree. This is still an aero formula. It's why Red Bull have remained competitive despite their power units. If something's wrong with a car, there's a good chance it's the aero.

At low speed the behaviour is dominated by suspensions.... Red bull has indeed good aero and always had the best suspension

[DRCorsa]

I disagree, I would say its probably 70-80% aero, and the rest suspension. If it was purely or predominantly suspension, they would have fixed it by now.

Unless it involves coarse geometry. Moving attachment points and resizing large components will incur monocoque or gearbox changes. Otherwise I agree. This is still an aero formula. It's why Red Bull have remained competitive despite their power units. If something's wrong with a car, there's a good chance it's the aero.

At low speed the behaviour is dominated by suspensions.... Red bull has indeed good aero and always had the best suspension

OK, that's the general opinion.
But in fact even at very low speeds, multi-element wings generate substantial levels of downforce.
Just for reference, the 3-element wing in the pic attached generates around 500N of downforce at 25m/s, i.e. 90kph.
3 element wing, 500mm chord length, 1.5m span. No endplates, no gurneys, no refining, just for reference.

[dans79]

I disagree, I would say its probably 70-80% aero, and the rest suspension. If it was purely or predominantly suspension, they would have fixed it by now.

Unless it involves coarse geometry. Moving attachment points and resizing large components will incur monocoque or gearbox changes. Otherwise I agree. This is still an aero formula. It's why Red Bull have remained competitive despite their power units. If something's wrong with a car, there's a good chance it's the aero.

At low speed the behaviour is dominated by suspensions.... Red bull has indeed good aero and always had the best suspension

So do you plan to continue ignoring Binotto's own comments?

https://racer.com/2019/05/15/binotto-sa ... eaknesses/

“Right now we are losing a lot in each corner, not only in the last sector. Each single corner we are slow with quite a lot of understeer. That is not only downforce; we have seen something in the data which we need to analyze and understand so I think an early conclusion would be a wrong conclusion. We need a fix on this, but we need a proper analysis and try to understand the matter of balance, the matter of downforce and maybe even tire concepts.”

If they are having balance issues in all corners, that's not suspension, that's an aero issue with some potential suspension related entanglements.

[mmred]

Unless it involves coarse geometry. Moving attachment points and resizing large components will incur monocoque or gearbox changes. Otherwise I agree. This is still an aero formula. It's why Red Bull have remained competitive despite their power units. If something's wrong with a car, there's a good chance it's the aero.

At low speed the behaviour is dominated by suspensions.... Red bull has indeed good aero and always had the best suspension

So do you plan to continue ignoring Binotto's own comments?

https://racer.com/2019/05/15/binotto-sa ... eaknesses/

“Right now we are losing a lot in each corner, not only in the last sector. Each single corner we are slow with quite a lot of understeer. That is not only downforce; we have seen something in the data which we need to analyze and understand so I think an early conclusion would be a wrong conclusion. We need a fix on this, but we need a proper analysis and try to understand the matter of balance, the matter of downforce and maybe even tire concepts.”

If they are having balance issues in all corners, that's not suspension, that's an aero issue with some potential suspension related entanglements.

there arent fast corners in spain, thats where aero is tested at its max and they didnt test aero but ride height with those sensors, that speaks a lot, suspensions can cause indeed an aero problem if the ride height of the fw is too much compared to the competition, i still see no stall, primary cause suspension

[dans79]

there arent fast corners in spain, thats where aero is tested at its max

Telemetry for turns 3, 9, and 16 say otherwise.