Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
izzy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by izzy » Tue May 28, 2019 9:51 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:00 pm
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Yes - they read the rules and made use of what those rules allowed them to do. That's just clever thinking.
i wasn't complaining, just explaining how it's more than being 'a tank'

Alexf1
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Alexf1 » Tue May 28, 2019 10:03 pm

izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:06 pm
Haven't Pirell also made the structure of the 2019 tyres harder compared to 2018? I guess this is where most teams struggle with this year except Mercs tank
yes exactly, Pirelli changed the structure, to cope with more downforce from the bigger wings plus the massive development race this year. they left the tread thin to avoid blistering and also at the same time make them more affected by wear, for more pitstops.

so now cars have to warm up the carcass with load, without melting the surface. one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Therefore the stiffer structure of the tyres is what I think teams struggle with. Not the 0.4mm thinner thread

izzy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by izzy » Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 pm

Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:03 pm
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:06 pm
Haven't Pirell also made the structure of the 2019 tyres harder compared to 2018? I guess this is where most teams struggle with this year except Mercs tank
yes exactly, Pirelli changed the structure, to cope with more downforce from the bigger wings plus the massive development race this year. they left the tread thin to avoid blistering and also at the same time make them more affected by wear, for more pitstops.

so now cars have to warm up the carcass with load, without melting the surface. one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Therefore the stiffer structure of the tyres is what I think teams struggle with. Not the 0.4mm thinner thread
yes i agree. even last year Seb was saying the thinner tread was good for the Ferrari as well. but now the carcass needs a lot of load to get it working, warm enough to be supple

wuzak
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by wuzak » Thu May 30, 2019 5:54 am

izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 pm
yes i agree. even last year Seb was saying the thinner tread was good for the Ferrari as well. but now the carcass needs a lot of load to get it working, warm enough to be supple
At Barcelona, where he tested the normal tyre and the thin tread tyre back-to-back.

gioma
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by gioma » Thu May 30, 2019 7:31 am

stez90 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:23 pm
santos wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:47 pm
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 249-28.jpg

The floor looks like it's made of wood.
The Nomex honeycomb core has that same color.
As far as I remember from when Carbon fiber was introduced to F1 wings this is Kevlar (extremely lightweight) and not Nomex:

https://www.corecomposites.com/products ... ycomb.html

izzy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by izzy » Thu May 30, 2019 8:30 am

wuzak wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:54 am
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 pm
yes i agree. even last year Seb was saying the thinner tread was good for the Ferrari as well. but now the carcass needs a lot of load to get it working, warm enough to be supple
At Barcelona, where he tested the normal tyre and the thin tread tyre back-to-back.
Yes Seb is 'the man who knows' isn't he, and he was gracious enough to say it at the time

wuzak
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by wuzak » Fri May 31, 2019 3:10 am

izzy wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 8:30 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:54 am
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 10:17 pm
yes i agree. even last year Seb was saying the thinner tread was good for the Ferrari as well. but now the carcass needs a lot of load to get it working, warm enough to be supple
At Barcelona, where he tested the normal tyre and the thin tread tyre back-to-back.
Yes Seb is 'the man who knows' isn't he, and he was gracious enough to say it at the time
The point is that Ferrari didn't have too many problems with the regular tyre, except at Barcelona. They may have had problems at Paul Ricard and Silverstone, but since the regular tyre wasn't used there we'll never know.

Maritimer
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Location: Canada

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Maritimer » Fri May 31, 2019 4:07 am

stez90 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:23 pm
santos wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 3:47 pm
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 249-28.jpg

The floor looks like it's made of wood.
The Nomex honeycomb core has that same color.
Nomex is a fire retardant, that's Kevlar.

roon
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by roon » Fri May 31, 2019 4:10 am

Image

Image

Image

izzy
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by izzy » Fri May 31, 2019 8:55 am

wuzak wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:10 am
izzy wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 8:30 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:54 am


At Barcelona, where he tested the normal tyre and the thin tread tyre back-to-back.
Yes Seb is 'the man who knows' isn't he, and he was gracious enough to say it at the time
The point is that Ferrari didn't have too many problems with the regular tyre, except at Barcelona. They may have had problems at Paul Ricard and Silverstone, but since the regular tyre wasn't used there we'll never know.
The point is the story that the thinner tread is terribly unfair on Ferrari is bunk :). And this year it's the same for everyone and more about the construction

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am

wuzak wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:10 am
The point is that Ferrari didn't have too many problems with the regular tyre, except at Barcelona. They may have had problems at Paul Ricard and Silverstone, but since the regular tyre wasn't used there we'll never know.
Did you see RAI's tires after Monza, or how much the Ferrari's blistered in Austria?

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Fri May 31, 2019 9:21 am

izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:06 pm
Haven't Pirell also made the structure of the 2019 tyres harder compared to 2018? I guess this is where most teams struggle with this year except Mercs tank
yes exactly, Pirelli changed the structure, to cope with more downforce from the bigger wings plus the massive development race this year. they left the tread thin to avoid blistering and also at the same time make them more affected by wear, for more pitstops.

so now cars have to warm up the carcass with load, without melting the surface. one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Do you have any source for this supposed increase in sidewall stiffness? Downforce was anticipated to decrease because of the 2019 aero regs with an increase of 1.5s per lap around Spain being the most common prediction. As far as I know pirelli made no mention of any construction changes or sidewall stiffness increase. Pirelli predicted a wider operating temperature range for 2019 and longer tire life closer to the limit(due to less blistering ), but they have usually been wrong about there own tires for years.

One and Only
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by One and Only » Fri May 31, 2019 10:33 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:21 am
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:06 pm
Haven't Pirell also made the structure of the 2019 tyres harder compared to 2018? I guess this is where most teams struggle with this year except Mercs tank
yes exactly, Pirelli changed the structure, to cope with more downforce from the bigger wings plus the massive development race this year. they left the tread thin to avoid blistering and also at the same time make them more affected by wear, for more pitstops.

so now cars have to warm up the carcass with load, without melting the surface. one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Do you have any source for this supposed increase in sidewall stiffness? Downforce was anticipated to decrease because of the 2019 aero regs with an increase of 1.5s per lap around Spain being the most common prediction. As far as I know pirelli made no mention of any construction changes or sidewall stiffness increase. Pirelli predicted a wider operating temperature range for 2019 and longer tire life closer to the limit(due to less blistering ), but they have usually been wrong about there own tires for years.
Bold part really bothers me. Everyone is having problems finding operating window of these tires. Even Mercedes, just less than others it seems. I cannot believe Pirelli did awesome job and 10 teams cannot understand that. It's not like people in these teams work with racing cars for last couple of years so they cannot understand tires.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

izzy
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Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by izzy » Fri May 31, 2019 10:33 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:21 am
izzy wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:33 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:06 pm
Haven't Pirell also made the structure of the 2019 tyres harder compared to 2018? I guess this is where most teams struggle with this year except Mercs tank
yes exactly, Pirelli changed the structure, to cope with more downforce from the bigger wings plus the massive development race this year. they left the tread thin to avoid blistering and also at the same time make them more affected by wear, for more pitstops.

so now cars have to warm up the carcass with load, without melting the surface. one thing was that at the race last year before the tyre test, Mercedes apparently ran with extra tyre sensors, that then they were allowed to do the tyre test with! if that's true then it must've helped steer them to their high front downforce concept, that they were rather late with...
Do you have any source for this supposed increase in sidewall stiffness? Downforce was anticipated to decrease because of the 2019 aero regs with an increase of 1.5s per lap around Spain being the most common prediction. As far as I know pirelli made no mention of any construction changes or sidewall stiffness increase. Pirelli predicted a wider operating temperature range for 2019 and longer tire life closer to the limit(due to less blistering ), but they have usually been wrong about there own tires for years.
Christian Horner said they're stiffer:
"We were very good on the tyres at the end of last year," Horner said. “Obviously there’s what something like 25 percent less rubber on these tyres, and they are stiffer.
https://f1i.com/news/341527-horner-very ... 2019.html
i've seen it somewhere else too. Pirelli said they'd changed the construction but not exactly what the effect was.

With the downforce, there was a lot of confusion. But they made the wings wider and also deeper, to offset the loss from cutting cascade wings and outwash, so they could change the shape of the wake to help following, supposedly, without making the cars slower. and maybe Pirelli were guessing what's actually happened, that teams have found ways of keeping a lot of their lovely outwash anyway, so the cars are faster if anything not slower and that's what we've seen isn't it

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm

izzy wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:33 am

Christian Horner said they're stiffer:
"We were very good on the tyres at the end of last year," Horner said. “Obviously there’s what something like 25 percent less rubber on these tyres, and they are stiffer.
https://f1i.com/news/341527-horner-very ... 2019.html
i've seen it somewhere else too. Pirelli said they'd changed the construction but not exactly what the effect was.

With the downforce, there was a lot of confusion. But they made the wings wider and also deeper, to offset the loss from cutting cascade wings and outwash, so they could change the shape of the wake to help following, supposedly, without making the cars slower. and maybe Pirelli were guessing what's actually happened, that teams have found ways of keeping a lot of their lovely outwash anyway, so the cars are faster if anything not slower and that's what we've seen isn't it
Horner is NOT a credible source, in fact he is a known to be a liar often, that is part of his job for RBR. Neither is he a technical person.

Downforce is lower across the grid except for Merc. That is what most of the numbers say to my understanding.