Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
dfegan358
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dfegan358 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:01 am

They will gain a lot of time in sector 3 for sure,

They need to improve slow corner performance a lot. Relying on straight line performance is not going to get the job done over season.

I’m not sure it’s as simple as Ferrari chose wrong front wing philosophy and that’s it. Seems to be mixture of issues affecting their slow speed performance.
Will be interesting to see if they do change front wing and how it affects the rest of the car.

ringo
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ringo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:44 am

The fact that they were flying in winter testing shows the car has the speed and may not be as poor on the front end as it appears. It is probably the wings that creates a norrower window of balance; reminiscent of the W08 mercedes that was super quick when in the right window but surprisingly noncompetitive when not in the sweet spot.
I suppose the new parts are to broaden the sweet spot of the car, i don't think it is much deficient when compared to the W10. The Jury is still out on the front performance.
Does the car have the same downforce as the W10 or even more because of the wing's outwash design increasing downforce to the body, while not generating much downforce locally at the front axle?
This may give it good high speed performance. However there is poor distribution over the front axle?
A lot can be happening here. It can also be setup can correct this minute problem.
For Sure!!

zibby43
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by zibby43 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:42 am

dans79 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:40 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:50 pm
I'm interested to see if Ferrari runs the spoon RW at Baku. They're going to be rapid in the final sector.
Yep, but I question how much they will pay for that in the first 2 sectors.
Very good question. A lot of 90-degree corners in the first sector and sector 2 (castle section), in particular, is super tight and twisty.

zibby43
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by zibby43 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:48 am

ringo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:44 am
The fact that they were flying in winter testing shows the car has the speed and may not be as poor on the front end as it appears. It is probably the wings that creates a norrower window of balance; reminiscent of the W08 mercedes that was super quick when in the right window but surprisingly noncompetitive when not in the sweet spot.
I suppose the new parts are to broaden the sweet spot of the car, i don't think it is much deficient when compared to the W10. The Jury is still out on the front performance.
Does the car have the same downforce as the W10 or even more because of the wing's outwash design increasing downforce to the body, while not generating much downforce locally at the front axle?
This may give it good high speed performance. However there is poor distribution over the front axle?
A lot can be happening here. It can also be setup can correct this minute problem.
Regarding the front end, Hughes argues that on every track that requires front end performance, the Ferrari has struggled.

"[H]ow it’s looking at the moment is that the Bahrain competitive picture is the outlier. Few, if any, of the other tracks are so severely rear tyre limited as Bahrain. At Shanghai – a track that is front-limited to an unusual degree, i.e. the other extreme from Bahrain – the Ferrari’s front grip shortfall from Melbourne had returned. Or rather, its poor front-end grip now mattered much more than at Bahrain – because most others were no longer suffering it as they didn’t have to compromise their qualifying set-ups."

He also seems to suggest that, upon further review, Ferrari's performance in Bahrain wasn't as strong as it looked at the time.

"In other words, take Ferrari out of the equation and the Mercedes was still way less competitive relative to the field in Bahrain than in Australia or China. To put it into lap time, Mercedes was a 1.292sec faster than the non-Ferrari field in Bahrain. But if it had retained its Melbourne advantage there, that would have translated as 2.169sec. Mercedes lost 0.877sec to the non-Ferrari field in Bahrain. But was only 0.324sec off Ferrari’s pole. Ferrari wasn’t spectacularly fast in Bahrain, in other words. It just looked so because of Mercedes struggling."

So, to your point about Barcelona . . . was Ferrari's performance there flattered by the fact that they hit the ground running there whereas Mercedes didn't start to look competitive until they started to get on top of setting their car up on the final day of testing?

Javert
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Javert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:50 am

In the cold, every wing generates more downforce

It may be that Ferrari Fw generated the right amount of front downforce when it was cold as in the winter testing, but in Australia/China generated less downforce because of hotter climate

timbo
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by timbo » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:10 am

Javert wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:50 am
In the cold, every wing generates more downforce

It may be that Ferrari Fw generated the right amount of front downforce when it was cold as in the winter testing, but in Australia/China generated less downforce because of hotter climate
But the same goes for the RW, so the overall balance is no different.

Tzk
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Tzk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:19 pm

timbo wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:10 am
But the same goes for the RW, so the overall balance is no different.
Nope... Let's assume you lack total downforce in warm conditions. Now let's assume it's cold and thus you got more df for a given car setup. Now, you keep the frontwing but trim the rearwing. Total balance is now shifted a bit to the front and the car performs well.

Now, you drive in warmer conditions. The frontwing will generate less df (and you can't trim it to generate more!) and thus you either end up with a understeery car or with too little overall df, because you again have to trim the rearwing for balance. The understeery car will make you slide in slow corners and trimming the rw will result in issues with tire management.

kebab
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by kebab » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:10 pm

Tzk wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:19 pm
Nope... Let's assume you lack total downforce in warm conditions. Now let's assume it's cold and thus you got more df for a given car setup. Now, you keep the frontwing but trim the rearwing. Total balance is now shifted a bit to the front and the car performs well.

Now, you drive in warmer conditions. The frontwing will generate less df (and you can't trim it to generate more!) and thus you either end up with a understeery car or with too little overall df, because you again have to trim the rearwing for balance. The understeery car will make you slide in slow corners and trimming the rw will result in issues with tire management.
Don’t you think the ambience temperature has more to do with mechanical grip, especially tire grip, not downforce generation of front wing?

e30ernest
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by e30ernest » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:32 pm

Temperature affects wing performance due to lower air density. IIRC, even pilots account for air temperature when planning take-offs and landings.

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by 101FlyingDutchman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:22 pm

We certainly do but mainly to reduce engine thermal wear.

Tzk
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Tzk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:40 pm

kebab wrote: Don’t you think the ambience temperature has more to do with mechanical grip, especially tire grip, not downforce generation of front wing?
I should‘ve worded this more carefully. I meant to say that the air is denser for a given abient pressure and a lower temperature. Of course the temperature is not the only parameter which influences the density :)

mmred
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:40 am

Tzk wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:40 pm
kebab wrote: Don’t you think the ambience temperature has more to do with mechanical grip, especially tire grip, not downforce generation of front wing?
I should‘ve worded this more carefully. I meant to say that the air is denser for a given abient pressure and a lower temperature. Of course the temperature is not the only parameter which influences the density :)
oh no it is altitude apart
prolem is the percentage variation in density of one degree is calculated p V = n Ru T
as a reference p is costant for the altitude
D1/ro =nRDT
so Dro=k/DT
now a degree change
DT=1 gives a density change of k=0.08 ( i think it may be even littler in this case )

so the effect on mechanical grip ( density of tyres gum oerheating is bigger )

dfegan358
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dfegan358 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:10 pm

Interesting to see what updates Ferrari will bring for this race.
Hopefully get some nice photos in the next few days.

Ferrari 1-2 badly needed. Can the straight line advantage outweigh loss in the corners.

SiLo
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by SiLo » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:00 pm

dfegan358 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:10 pm
Interesting to see what updates Ferrari will bring for this race.
Hopefully get some nice photos in the next few days.

Ferrari 1-2 badly needed. Can the straight line advantage outweigh loss in the corners.
If they don't bring any updates then probably not. What they gain on the straights is just making up what they lost in the slow corners preceding them. What it might mean is that they are very close to Mercedes in pace, just at different points across the lap.
Felipe Baby!

F1NAC
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by F1NAC » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:41 pm

SiLo wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:00 pm
dfegan358 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:10 pm
Interesting to see what updates Ferrari will bring for this race.
Hopefully get some nice photos in the next few days.

Ferrari 1-2 badly needed. Can the straight line advantage outweigh loss in the corners.
If they don't bring any updates then probably not. What they gain on the straights is just making up what they lost in the slow corners preceding them. What it might mean is that they are very close to Mercedes in pace, just at different points across the lap.
Binotto said that this weekend they will release first batch of updates on SF90. So we could see some changes