Williams FW42

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Big Tea
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by Big Tea » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:13 am
It's just one of those things that F1 teams do. It's carbon fibre so it's good and it's expensive to develop so it's better! Except it isn't, of course. Nothing wrong with an aluminium gearbox casing. It does the job well enough.

You don't have to go with the latest/greatest every time. As Patrick Head said: "titanium is for people who can't design properly with aluminium". I guess his thoughts still shape the ethos of the team even now in some ways.
Would ally not have better cooling characteristics than CF anyway? What is gained in weight could well be swallowed up in cooling?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Just_a_fan
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:31 pm

Quite possibly. I'm not really sure what benefit the CF casing is supposed to bring. I guess there's some weight saving, but if it has to carry suspension loads, rear wing loads and rear crash structure loads, I would think even a CF casing is going to be fairly chunky. Done well, aluminium can be light, strong and resilient.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Zynerji
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by Zynerji » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:35 pm

I agree. Aluminum should be used in this instance. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the plus/delta matrix between the two types.

If they want cost reduction, they could specify aluminum, air cooled gearboxes.

bucker
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by bucker » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:05 pm

Morteza wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:50 pm
FW42 seems to be the only car with such a cutting on the FW endplate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dz8LnJCX0AA19oH.jpg
Via @NicolasF1i
Renault has same cut out.

ESPImperium
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by ESPImperium » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:37 pm

The rumour i heard last year when Williams were considering a switch to a carbon case gearbox from Mercedes was that it would cost them £5m per season, and the weight reduction was 18 kilos. The Carbon case would shift the weight centre of the car further forward, meaning more front end bite. And that extra 18 kilos would be worth .7 of a lap, and that 18 kilos would be better used for ballast, ballast that would be lower in the car. Overall, it could be worth just over a second of a lap.

However, to manufacture their own carbon case would cost would be estimated £12m a year, and without a customer supply it wouldn't be profitable. Also the fact the aluminium cases have a better crash resilience, where if a car gets a rearward impact or goes into a wall backward, the likelihood the driveshaft will be torn out is much less, meaning a possibility of less grid penalties.

I think Williams will keep a aluminium case until the team is taken over or someone in the team takes a stand and takes the step. Or will they wait until the standard gearbox, that looks more likely.

bill shoe
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by bill shoe » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:08 pm

I'm extremely skeptical that a well-executed carbon case vs. a well-executed aluminum case has a weight difference of 40 lbs (18 kg)!! If Williams could remove 40 lbs from the gearbox casing for £5 million then their cheque would be in the mail to Mercedes today.

bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Williams FW42

Post by bill shoe » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:45 pm

Bit more of a functional response-

2001 article by John Barnard shows weights for F1 gearbox cases, oddly little info on aluminum-

Image

full article- http://www.grandprix.com/features/peter ... esign.html

Another older article but at least it's by Scarbs- http://scarbsf1.com/transmissions.html

On the surface these articles support the plausibility of a case weight difference of 18 kg. But that's huge in current F1 so I'm still very skeptical that this is the reality of the current Williams. That's like attaching 3 bowling balls to the gearbox casing of a front-running car.

Anybody got more/better info?

tomazy
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by tomazy » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:59 am

ESPImperium wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:37 pm
The rumour i heard last year when Williams were considering a switch to a carbon case gearbox from Mercedes was that it would cost them £5m per season, and the weight reduction was 18 kilos. The Carbon case would shift the weight centre of the car further forward, meaning more front end bite. And that extra 18 kilos would be worth .7 of a lap, and that 18 kilos would be better used for ballast, ballast that would be lower in the car. Overall, it could be worth just over a second of a lap.

However, to manufacture their own carbon case would cost would be estimated £12m a year, and without a customer supply it wouldn't be profitable. Also the fact the aluminium cases have a better crash resilience, where if a car gets a rearward impact or goes into a wall backward, the likelihood the driveshaft will be torn out is much less, meaning a possibility of less grid penalties.

I think Williams will keep a aluminium case until the team is taken over or someone in the team takes a stand and takes the step. Or will they wait until the standard gearbox, that looks more likely.
Even if we say that the cf gearbox is 18kg lighter, this does not mean 0.7s a lap. The car would not be 18 kg lighter (18kg of extra fuel is about 0.7s a lap) but would still be at the minimum weight limit.

The weight distribution is regulated by regulations, and I am cerain that Williams can get to the entire spectre of regulations with the balast they have available now.

The only positive then is a lover cog, but there is not that much time lost for 5m.

skwdenyer
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by skwdenyer » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:17 am

TwanV wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:13 am
As Patrick Head said: "titanium is for people who can't design properly with aluminium". I guess his thoughts still shape the ethos of the team even now in some ways.
Ha! that is a great quotation.
My Grandfather, a helicopter designer, used to say "an Engineer is the guy who can do for 10 bob what any damn' fool can do for a quid." F1 doesn't seem to have quite enough of such people any more.

roon
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by roon » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:43 am


dren
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Re: Williams FW42

Post by dren » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:30 pm

bucker wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:05 pm
Morteza wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:50 pm
FW42 seems to be the only car with such a cutting on the FW endplate
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dz8LnJCX0AA19oH.jpg
Via @NicolasF1i
Renault has same cut out.
Ferrari has a cut out too, but not as pronounced.
Honda!

Greg_OR
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Location: Wroclaw, Poland

Re: Williams FW42

Post by Greg_OR » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:44 pm

Last year in FW41 topic: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27030&hilit=titanium&start=285
it was stated that Williams gearbox is indeed titanium not aluminium. Could anyone clarify this, please?

bucker
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Williams FW42

Post by bucker » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:50 pm

skwdenyer wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:17 am
TwanV wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:13 am
As Patrick Head said: "titanium is for people who can't design properly with aluminium". I guess his thoughts still shape the ethos of the team even now in some ways.
Ha! that is a great quotation.
My Grandfather, a helicopter designer, used to say "an Engineer is the guy who can do for 10 bob what any damn' fool can do for a quid." F1 doesn't seem to have quite enough of such people any more.
For us who are not from Uk that means?

skwdenyer
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Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 11:00 pm

Re: Williams FW42

Post by skwdenyer » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:18 pm

bucker wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:50 pm
skwdenyer wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:17 am
TwanV wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:16 am

Ha! that is a great quotation.
My Grandfather, a helicopter designer, used to say "an Engineer is the guy who can do for 10 bob what any damn' fool can do for a quid." F1 doesn't seem to have quite enough of such people any more.
For us who are not from Uk that means?
Sorry! A quid is 1 pound sterling; 10 bob is 10 shillings (pre 1974, British pounds were divided into 20 shillings, each of 12 pence).

So 10 bob = 10 shillings = £0.50.

So in modern money “an Engineer is the guy who can do for £0.50 what any damn’ fool can do for £1.”

ESPImperium
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Williams FW42

Post by ESPImperium » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:04 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:08 pm
I'm extremely skeptical that a well-executed carbon case vs. a well-executed aluminum case has a weight difference of 40 lbs (18 kg)!! If Williams could remove 40 lbs from the gearbox casing for £5 million then their cheque would be in the mail to Mercedes today.
The other thing that doing this would mean damage to the Williams Advanced Engineering side as it shows that there isn't much of a trust of their own technology, so why market it. It would provide a PR own goal and it would also harm other parts of the overall company.
tomazy wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:59 am
ESPImperium wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:37 pm
The rumour i heard last year when Williams were considering a switch to a carbon case gearbox from Mercedes was that it would cost them £5m per season, and the weight reduction was 18 kilos. The Carbon case would shift the weight centre of the car further forward, meaning more front end bite. And that extra 18 kilos would be worth .7 of a lap, and that 18 kilos would be better used for ballast, ballast that would be lower in the car. Overall, it could be worth just over a second of a lap.

However, to manufacture their own carbon case would cost would be estimated £12m a year, and without a customer supply it wouldn't be profitable. Also the fact the aluminium cases have a better crash resilience, where if a car gets a rearward impact or goes into a wall backward, the likelihood the driveshaft will be torn out is much less, meaning a possibility of less grid penalties.

I think Williams will keep a aluminium case until the team is taken over or someone in the team takes a stand and takes the step. Or will they wait until the standard gearbox, that looks more likely.
Even if we say that the cf gearbox is 18kg lighter, this does not mean 0.7s a lap. The car would not be 18 kg lighter (18kg of extra fuel is about 0.7s a lap) but would still be at the minimum weight limit.

The weight distribution is regulated by regulations, and I am cerain that Williams can get to the entire spectre of regulations with the balast they have available now.

The only positive then is a lover cog, but there is not that much time lost for 5m.
Yes the regulations state a weight distribution, but it means that the weight can be placed more advantageous areas lower down, meaning roll inertia is minimised with the suspension. That may also help tyre wear in some cases as well, an area that Williams have been okay with, it may make them much better.