McLaren MCL34

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: McLaren MCL34

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M840TR wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 23:24
mwillems wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 23:12
M840TR wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 20:30


Yup. Their front wing design isn't that extreme anyway and they seemed to have resolved their understeer issues for quali in Melbourne. It's much more likely - as @smallsoldier pointed out - they're aiming for a car that works in most circuits; then slowly developing it into something with a wider working window throughout the season.
Yes it was a late night post. I am referring to the car being understeery. I'm not convinced it is gone yet but stand to be completely wrong. I don't think they would run the car to lose so much time in corners to gain a little speed on the straights because they wanted to, or it was the natural choice. I wonder if the balance issue was resolved by simply carrying less aero on the rear.
Do you mean less wing angle?
Yes.

As the front wings are a big unknown, I curious to see how they converge in ideas. Mercedes , Red Bull and Haas haven't done too badly with the utilising the depth on the outboard of the front wings. Ferrari had huge balance issues on this track with a more extreme version of what Mclaren have. Perhaps the solution we chose doesn't work so well at this track.

It's just conjecture, but valid given the uncertainty of the teams themselves and what might be the best solution here.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

SmallSoldier
473
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL34

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mwillems wrote:
M840TR wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 23:24
mwillems wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 23:12
Yes it was a late night post. I am referring to the car being understeery. I'm not convinced it is gone yet but stand to be completely wrong. I don't think they would run the car to lose so much time in corners to gain a little speed on the straights because they wanted to, or it was the natural choice. I wonder if the balance issue was resolved by simply carrying less aero on the rear.
Do you mean less wing angle?
Yes.

As the front wings are a big unknown, I curious to see how they converge in ideas. Mercedes , Red Bull and Haas haven't done too badly with the utilising the depth on the outboard of the front wings. Ferrari had huge balance issues on this track with a more extreme version of what Mclaren have. Perhaps the solution we chose doesn't work so well at this track.

It's just conjecture, but valid given the uncertainty of the teams themselves and what might be the best solution here.
Does anyone has the data for last year’s car rake? I found interesting to see Mclaren “in the middle” when it came down to rake this season... If they were trying to copy Red Bull, at least they aren’t doing it in regards to rake.

Would be interesting to compare last year’s with this year.

Image


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mantikos
35
Joined: 02 Mar 2011, 17:35

Re: McLaren MCL34

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SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 15:58
mwillems wrote:
M840TR wrote:
23 Mar 2019, 23:24


Do you mean less wing angle?
Yes.

As the front wings are a big unknown, I curious to see how they converge in ideas. Mercedes , Red Bull and Haas haven't done too badly with the utilising the depth on the outboard of the front wings. Ferrari had huge balance issues on this track with a more extreme version of what Mclaren have. Perhaps the solution we chose doesn't work so well at this track.

It's just conjecture, but valid given the uncertainty of the teams themselves and what might be the best solution here.
Does anyone has the data for last year’s car rake? I found interesting to see Mclaren “in the middle” when it came down to rake this season... If they were trying to copy Red Bull, at least they aren’t doing it in regards to rake.

Would be interesting to compare last year’s with this year.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201903 ... 3726af.jpg


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They said Mercedes had 20 mm more rake in week 2 of the test, your table is inherintly inaccurate as a result since it only shows the rake from the week 1 car that never raced and never will

SmallSoldier
473
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL34

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mantikos wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 15:58
mwillems wrote: Yes.

As the front wings are a big unknown, I curious to see how they converge in ideas. Mercedes , Red Bull and Haas haven't done too badly with the utilising the depth on the outboard of the front wings. Ferrari had huge balance issues on this track with a more extreme version of what Mclaren have. Perhaps the solution we chose doesn't work so well at this track.

It's just conjecture, but valid given the uncertainty of the teams themselves and what might be the best solution here.
Does anyone has the data for last year’s car rake? I found interesting to see Mclaren “in the middle” when it came down to rake this season... If they were trying to copy Red Bull, at least they aren’t doing it in regards to rake.

Would be interesting to compare last year’s with this year.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201903 ... 3726af.jpg


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They said Mercedes had 20 mm more rake in week 2 of the test, your table is inherintly inaccurate as a result since it only shows the rake from the week 1 car that never raced and never will
Well, I wasn’t talking about Mercedes in that table... As long as the rake for the other cars is accurate, it is still a good point of data... Just wondering what the rake was in 2018 to understand if there is another change in philosophy at Mclaren beyond the ones we already know about.


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FW17
165
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: McLaren MCL34

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Maybe the concept where in they had a short wheel base and higher rake angle

2017 (assuming the 2017 and 2018 car were same concept)
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2019
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mclaren111
272
Joined: 06 Apr 2014, 10:49
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: McLaren MCL34

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SmallSoldier wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 03:31
mantikos wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 15:58


Does anyone has the data for last year’s car rake? I found interesting to see Mclaren “in the middle” when it came down to rake this season... If they were trying to copy Red Bull, at least they aren’t doing it in regards to rake.

Would be interesting to compare last year’s with this year.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201903 ... 3726af.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
They said Mercedes had 20 mm more rake in week 2 of the test, your table is inherintly inaccurate as a result since it only shows the rake from the week 1 car that never raced and never will
Well, I wasn’t talking about Mercedes in that table... As long as the rake for the other cars is accurate, it is still a good point of data...
Just wondering what the rake was in 2018 to understand if there is another change in philosophy at Mclaren beyond the ones we already know about.
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What are the other changes in philosophy you're referring to ? Can you elaborate ??

M840TR
313
Joined: 13 Apr 2018, 21:04

Re: McLaren MCL34

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Image

M840TR
313
Joined: 13 Apr 2018, 21:04

Re: McLaren MCL34

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mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 09:57
SmallSoldier wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 03:31
mantikos wrote:
They said Mercedes had 20 mm more rake in week 2 of the test, your table is inherintly inaccurate as a result since it only shows the rake from the week 1 car that never raced and never will
Well, I wasn’t talking about Mercedes in that table... As long as the rake for the other cars is accurate, it is still a good point of data...
Just wondering what the rake was in 2018 to understand if there is another change in philosophy at Mclaren beyond the ones we already know about.
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What are the other changes in philosophy you're referring to ? Can you elaborate ??
Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

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mclaren111
272
Joined: 06 Apr 2014, 10:49
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: McLaren MCL34

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M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 12:16
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 09:57
SmallSoldier wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 03:31


Well, I wasn’t talking about Mercedes in that table... As long as the rake for the other cars is accurate, it is still a good point of data...
Just wondering what the rake was in 2018 to understand if there is another change in philosophy at Mclaren beyond the ones we already know about.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What are the other changes in philosophy you're referring to ? Can you elaborate ??
Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...

M840TR
313
Joined: 13 Apr 2018, 21:04

Re: McLaren MCL34

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mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05
M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 12:16
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 09:57



What are the other changes in philosophy you're referring to ? Can you elaborate ??
Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.

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diffuser
207
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: McLaren MCL34

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M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:30
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05
M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 12:16


Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.
I would add I think the car is a little longer.

Image

User avatar
mclaren111
272
Joined: 06 Apr 2014, 10:49
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: McLaren MCL34

Post

M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:30
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05
M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 12:16


Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.

Thank you Sir... You are a Scholar and a Gentleman...
Last edited by mclaren111 on 26 Mar 2019, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

M840TR
313
Joined: 13 Apr 2018, 21:04

Re: McLaren MCL34

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diffuser wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:53
M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:30
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05



Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.
I would add I think the car is a little longer.

https://i.redd.it/4l9kkdw43rg21.png
That's just a rendering though.

SmallSoldier
473
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL34

Post

M840TR wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05
M840TR wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 12:16
Packaging, sidepods, bargeboards etc etc.

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.
That is a great post!

I guess we need to add the following:

A) Front suspension: The team is now using a raised front suspension, which will require a few races to understand it’s behavior and reaction to changes at the track.

B) Sidepods: It is important to note that the upper crash beams have actually been moved to the “lowest” position, with the sidepod now residing a top of it (when one is looking a picture of the front of car, the portion below the side pod that extends into the bargeboard (black) is the crash beam)... This changes not only how the car gets cooling, but most importantly how air moves on top and below the Sidepod “entrance” which is wider than in previous year

C) Rake: I had my suspicious based on the initial renderings, but the car seemed to have less rake than in previous years... This is a “massive” change in regards to air management through the car and a surprising one since the tendency was to use high rakes, Mclaren has had a high rake / short wheel base for most of the hybrid era... Even though they haven’t gone to a Mercedes concept (long wheel base low rake), they are closer to it today than to Red Bull (actually, in this regard Ferrari is the closest concept for them).

D) Wheel Base: The car has grown in regards to last year and this will also have an effect in how they manage air around the car.

All of the above changes (adding the ones for Packaging, Bargeboards and Sidepods) imply a very different way of managing air around the car and how the car is setup... If we think about the rest of the teams, their aero concepts or philosophies have been maintained from previous season with the obvious introduction of the new wings and some tweaks, but for the most part same philosophies in regards to how the air is managed towards the back of the car (an example of this is Racing Point, which during testing used a 2018 car with some 2019 parts during testing and wasn’t way off the pace).

The change in concept / philosophy for the team implies that they will have an slow start of the season since they have to learn and understand it’s behavior, if the car starts reacting the way they expect it to changes in setup and the parts coming in, that means that the concept works and their rate of development and improvement should be very interesting (which is encouraging considering that they are in the mix with the midfield at this point).

I have a theory on what is causing the balance problems for Mclaren and if I’m right, they will fix it and once they do, they should/could make a big leap in times / positions.


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kfrantzios
46
Joined: 11 Mar 2017, 15:19
Location: Greece
Contact:

Re: McLaren MCL34

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
M840TR wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 14:05

Sorry to be a stickler...Those are just differently shaped to last year...

Philosophy = A theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for ideas, notions and doctrines...

Thus, I still don't know what MCL34's new philosophies are...
Alright. Main changes:

Packaging: Previous philosophy for Mcl32 & Mcl33 were focused on CoG. All the weight was at the bottom with a vacancy on top. This obviously wasn't good for aero as the bulky sidepods blocked air moving towards the diffuser and cleared it for the rear wing. Hence the drag issue. This year is the opposite; aero over CoG.

Sidepods: Moved back to be less sensitive from tyre wake. Crash structure moved up to widen the undercut.

Bargeboards: Longer this year which lessens drag and manages tyre wake better - hence no diffuser stall in corners - which was apparently one of Mcl33's main issue.

The only concept carried over from last year is the nose and rear suspension; rest are regulation based changes like front & rear wing etc.
That is a great post!

I guess we need to add the following:

A) Front suspension: The team is now using a raised front suspension, which will require a few races to understand it’s behavior and reaction to changes at the track.

B) Sidepods: It is important to note that the upper crash beams have actually been moved to the “lowest” position, with the sidepod now residing a top of it (when one is looking a picture of the front of car, the portion below the side pod that extends into the bargeboard (black) is the crash beam)... This changes not only how the car gets cooling, but most importantly how air moves on top and below the Sidepod “entrance” which is wider than in previous year

C) Rake: I had my suspicious based on the initial renderings, but the car seemed to have less rake than in previous years... This is a “massive” change in regards to air management through the car and a surprising one since the tendency was to use high rakes, Mclaren has had a high rake / short wheel base for most of the hybrid era... Even though they haven’t gone to a Mercedes concept (long wheel base low rake), they are closer to it today than to Red Bull (actually, in this regard Ferrari is the closest concept for them).

D) Wheel Base: The car has grown in regards to last year and this will also have an effect in how they manage air around the car.

All of the above changes (adding the ones for Packaging, Bargeboards and Sidepods) imply a very different way of managing air around the car and how the car is setup... If we think about the rest of the teams, their aero concepts or philosophies have been maintained from previous season with the obvious introduction of the new wings and some tweaks, but for the most part same philosophies in regards to how the air is managed towards the back of the car (an example of this is Racing Point, which during testing used a 2018 car with some 2019 parts during testing and wasn’t way off the pace).

The change in concept / philosophy for the team implies that they will have an slow start of the season since they have to learn and understand it’s behavior, if the car starts reacting the way they expect it to changes in setup and the parts coming in, that means that the concept works and their rate of development and improvement should be very interesting (which is encouraging considering that they are in the mix with the midfield at this point).

I have a theory on what is causing the balance problems for Mclaren and if I’m right, they will fix it and once they do, they should/could make a big leap in times / positions.


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Care to share your theory?

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