You clearly have no idea what a heave spring is. Greater minds than yours, indeed!roy928tt wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 9:49 amBecause a sway bar/ anti roll bar is not a spring, it holds nothing up, it only transfers force from one side to the other, typically augmenting one "wheel spring" by connecting it to the one on the other side. Thereby reducing the independence of each wheel and inducing roll dive.
Rest assured greater minds than yours or mine have come to where we are in F1.
Some cars do just have heave springs and an arb. Problem is you have to change both then when you want to change the individual wheel rate so it hurts quick adjustments at the trackjcorsico wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 12:16 amAren't some of these springs redundant?
The sway bar adds increasing force in roll. The heave spring adds increasing force in pitch. Why do you need individual wheel springs then? Each wheel spring adds force in both roll and pitch. Can't you ditch the wheel springs and just run a heave spring and swaybar?
I know people have done that in the past. But why didn't it work?
So as Roy928TT said, the car would simply fall on the ground if it didn't have wheel springs to hold it up, as you would intuitively expect?Just_a_fan wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:35 pmThe anti roll bar (sway bar) resists roll - it only works in roll, the heave spring resists heave (pitch) - it only works in the longitudinal direction, and the individual wheel springs keep the individual tyres in contact with the tarmac in response to individual bumps.
Thank you Phillip.
Thank you for trying to be helpful, but you're still very confused!roy928tt wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 11:09 pmSteady up Sunshine.
You asked, why have wheel springs when you have a heave spring, and I tried to illustrate that without wheel springs you would have no roll stiffness. The car would have resistance to pitch but no resistance to roll....er, that would be wrong also...the sway bar would try to pull the opposite wheel upward and the car would pitch onto the heave spring.
Doesn't feel right though, a sway bar removes the independence from your wheels, so doesn't want to be too stiff, heave spring only operates under brakes or acceleration when both wheels on one axle are subject to the same forces and wheel springs are independent of other wheels so give roll stiffness and bump stiffness.
A good illustration of the effectiveness of current suspension is "that photo" of Nico Rosberg Peter Fox Degner Curve Japanese GP 2016. To achieve that degree of articulation and independence whilst also maintaining a solid platform for the aero to work on at high speed is the work of genius.
Pretty much, problem is if you want to change the heave spring it's generally a stacked disc setup on the 3rd damper and tied into the inerter rates - so you need to change the whole lot to a matching set.jcorsico wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 7:54 pmI guess you are saying that if you have a car with just an ARB and a heave spring, and you want to increase both the roll stiffness and the heave stiffness at the same time, then you have to change both the anti-roll bar and the heave spring (two springs). Versus, if you had a car with wheel springs, ARB and heave spring, you'd have to change each wheel spring (two springs?).
Ah, got it. Thank you.PhillipM wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pmPretty much, problem is if you want to change the heave spring it's generally a stacked disc setup on the 3rd damper and tied into the inerter rates - so you need to change the whole lot to a matching set.
Wheel springs are generally just two torsion bars that can be slid out after undoing 2 bolts and changed in minutes.