Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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zibby43
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:44 am
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:46 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:05 pm
If they use more rake and shorter wheelbase, it could mean they want more downforce at lower speeds but keep the low drag nature at higher speeds.
Sounds like downforce at the cost of efficiency to me.
Wouldn't you lose some aero platform stability by shortening the wheelbase? Also you'd have to rely more on the bargeboards to seal the floor which has the potential to choke the floor and diffuser with too long a wheelbase? Maybe a shorter wheelbase allows you to use a strong vortex from the bargeboards without choking the diffuser like a long wheelbase would?
Typically, longer-wheelbase cars are more stable at high speeds and have efficient downforce (there's more space/surface area for generating downforce). The downsides of a longer car are obviously weight, and to a certain extent, a slight agility disadvantage in tight, slow-speed corners. Mercedes seemed to have engineered around that issue in '19.

High-rake cars will produce more underbody downforce from the underfloor than a low-rake cars with the same floor area. This is due to the expanding space behind the small gap between the floor’s leading edge and the surface of the track itself. Higher-rake helps boost diffuser performance. Low-rake cars require a bigger floor to get the equivalent downforce of higher-rake ones.

Low-rake cars' downforce comes with a smaller drag penalty (i.e., better efficiency) and they have a low CoG, which helps with handling and in turn, tire management (Merc was the class of the field in this area in '19).

To your original point, increasing the rake and shortening the wheelbase is going to add some drag. Sounds like they're trying to rectify their cornering problem at the expense of their straightline advantage, which was a combination of their efficient design and whatever was going on with the PU.

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godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:48 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:44 am
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:46 pm


Sounds like downforce at the cost of efficiency to me.
Wouldn't you lose some aero platform stability by shortening the wheelbase? Also you'd have to rely more on the bargeboards to seal the floor which has the potential to choke the floor and diffuser with too long a wheelbase? Maybe a shorter wheelbase allows you to use a strong vortex from the bargeboards without choking the diffuser like a long wheelbase would?
Typically, longer-wheelbase cars are more stable at high speeds and have efficient downforce (there's more space/surface area for generating downforce). The downsides of a longer car are obviously weight, and to a certain extent, a slight agility disadvantage in tight, slow-speed corners. Mercedes seemed to have engineered around that issue in '19.

High-rake cars will produce more underbody downforce from the underfloor than a low-rake cars with the same floor area. This is due to the expanding space behind the small gap between the floor’s leading edge and the surface of the track itself. Higher-rake helps boost diffuser performance. Low-rake cars require a bigger floor to get the equivalent downforce of higher-rake ones.

Low-rake cars' downforce comes with a smaller drag penalty (i.e., better efficiency) and they have a low CoG, which helps with handling and in turn, tire management (Merc was the class of the field in this area in '19).

To your original point, increasing the rake and shortening the wheelbase is going to add some drag. Sounds like they're trying to rectify their cornering problem at the expense of their straightline advantage, which was a combination of their efficient design and whatever was going on with the PU.
But how do bargeboards affect wheelbase? Remember that they're producing both out and up wash, and behind the bargeboards, teams have a tea tray extension which creates a vortex that feeds air to the floor. If the bargeboards are too powerful, they can choke airflow to the diffuser despite creating downforce on their own and sealing the floor at the same time.

The slots you see on the bargeboards are an attempt to bleed some outwash and keep the diffuser fed.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:01 am


But how do bargeboards affect wheelbase? Remember that they're producing both out and up wash, and behind the bargeboards, teams have a tea tray extension which creates a vortex that feeds air to the floor. If the bargeboards are too powerful, they can choke airflow to the diffuser despite creating downforce on their own and sealing the floor at the same time.

The slots you see on the bargeboards are an attempt to bleed some outwash and keep the diffuser fed.
The bargeboards are creating downwash to help bring "clean" air down from above the car where it hasn't been affected by the suspension etc.

The slots help to keep the flow attached to the bargeboard and enhance the vorticity along the op edge. This makes the board more effective.

And you can't "seal the floor" without skirts.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:01 am


But how do bargeboards affect wheelbase? Remember that they're producing both out and up wash, and behind the bargeboards, teams have a tea tray extension which creates a vortex that feeds air to the floor. If the bargeboards are too powerful, they can choke airflow to the diffuser despite creating downforce on their own and sealing the floor at the same time.

The slots you see on the bargeboards are an attempt to bleed some outwash and keep the diffuser fed.
The bargeboards are creating downwash to help bring "clean" air down from above the car where it hasn't been affected by the suspension etc.

The slots help to keep the flow attached to the bargeboard and enhance the vorticity along the op edge. This makes the board more effective.

And you can't "seal the floor" without skirts.
The vortex that comes off the barge board is the skirt.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:30 pm

The vortex that comes off the barge board is the skirt.
It really isn't, it's one of those ideas that's grown up somehow that doesn't stand a bit of thought.

The skirt's job is to prevent the ingress of high pressure air in to the low pressure zone below the floor. If a vortex was to be used to do that, the vortex would just be deflected in to the low pressure zone by the high pressure air - the vortex isn't a rigid structure after all.

There is benefit in running a vortex under the floor, however, as it's a low pressure area at its core which can provide downforce.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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jumpingfish
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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New gearbox will be shorter by 30mm

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... o/4650527/

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godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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So maybe they're not shortening the wheelbase but rather the transmission to give more space for the diffuser. Makes sense if you want more downforce.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:30 pm

The vortex that comes off the barge board is the skirt.
It really isn't, it's one of those ideas that's grown up somehow that doesn't stand a bit of thought.

The skirt's job is to prevent the ingress of high pressure air in to the low pressure zone below the floor. If a vortex was to be used to do that, the vortex would just be deflected in to the low pressure zone by the high pressure air - the vortex isn't a rigid structure after all.

There is benefit in running a vortex under the floor, however, as it's a low pressure area at its core which can provide downforce.
Then why the need for slots along the edge of the floor? What is the flick up at the beginning of the forward floor edge doing?

Image
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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The slots help to maintain the outwash effect. It's all about the outwash. Then the slots change in front of the rear tyre to bleed pressure in to the squash zone.

It all helps underfloor and diffuser performance but it's not "sealing".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

LM10
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:49 pm
So maybe they're not shortening the wheelbase but rather the transmission to give more space for the diffuser. Makes sense if you want more downforce.
The article suggests that shortening the gearbox and shortening the wheelbase will go hand in hand. It also suggests, like you've told, that this way Ferrari might be seeking for increased downforce (especially at low speeds) without losing much of it's low drag characteristics.

LM10
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:37 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:30 pm
Some more speculation:

- There won't be a fully hydraulic third element, but, like in 2019, a hydraulically controlled traditional one
- Outwash front wing, but with more load on the outer parts
- Cooling inlet of the radiators will remain positioned on the top
- A slimmer Coca-Cola area
- A lot of work has been done on the rear floor area
- More rake, shorter wheelbase
- Architectural changes to the PU (as already known) and to the hybrid part to increase energy recovery
- Better consumption and reliability

https://www.corriere.it/sport/formula-1 ... pale.shtml
Sounds quite likely, more than what motorsport Italy has reported.
It'll look very similar to the SF90.
You're right. I think Ferrari won't go for big changes. Fully hydraulic third element would have been a too big of a change for example, for only a season remaining until it gets banned.

Polite
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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Hi all,

news from Leo Turrini:
"A me risulta che finora le indicazioni simulatore +galleria del vento non abbiano entusiasmato i tecnici di Maranello. E l’ho scritto. Ma tieni conto che c’è ancora tempo."
"it turns out to me that so far the simulator + wind tunnel indications have not impressed the Maranello technicians. And I wrote it. But keep in mind that there is still time."

ps.

I just discovered that the electrically operated gearbox was already designed by Forghieri 10 years before Barnard and was tested by Gilles on the track. Barnard found it in a drawer in the Scuderia. Wow 1979!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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Polite wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:49 pm
Barnard found it in a drawer in the Scuderia. Wow 1979!
Barnard was good at finding stuff in drawers. He took a load of McLaren drawings with him when he moved from McLaren to Ferrari... :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF91?? Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:00 pm
The slots help to maintain the outwash effect. It's all about the outwash. Then the slots change in front of the rear tyre to bleed pressure in to the squash zone.

It all helps underfloor and diffuser performance but it's not "sealing".
If it helps diffuser performance by preventing high pressure air from entering the diffuser then it is sealing it unless we are being pedantic. The outwash is high pressure, just like up wash from the wing is high pressure and the opposite surface is low. If the outwash is high pressure then it naturally wants to migrate to a low pressure zone. That flow migration promotes vortex helicity.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee