Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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LM10
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:49 pm
I doubt planes will ever be mostly black, weight is a huge factor, but so is heat rejection.

Pepsi cola once made a marketing stunt, where they painted a Concorde in blue, and it wasn't able to fly at its cruise speed for more that 20 minutes, because the fuselage got too hot.

I know that modern airlines doesn't fly at supersonic speeds, but they spend s lot of time on the ground, with their engines turned off, and the engines drives the air-conditioning. So think of a black 787 sitting in the Dubai heat for a couple of hours, and then boarding it :oops:
It’s the APU which provides the air conditioning on the airplane when on ground with engines switched off.

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Lotus102
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Colour was so critical with Concorde that the Pepsi blue scheme had to be checked with and approved by the manufacturer, and it was required that the wings remained white to ensure fuel temperature didn’t rise too high from absorption of sunlight. Restrictions were placed on the blue aircraft by the manufacturers at speeds above Mach 1.7 - http://www.concordesst.com/history/events/pepsi.html

They did use paint, it was applied by the Air France paint shop at Paris Orly. I’m not sure Vinyl wrap would have been possible due to heat bubbling and the fact that the aircraft stretches by about 25cm at Mach 2.

Concorde is a bit of a special case. Skin friction is much less of an issue for most airliners. I’m not sure about weight being such an issue with white though. Depending on what you’re trying to paint, you can need more white to ensure good coverage than a darker colour, so even if it’s lighter gallon for gallon, you might not save anything. White is advantageous on commercial aircraft for all sorts of reasons. Heat reflection is a big one. Skin cracks and things like oil/hydraulic leaks are easier to spot. White is best for visibility for aircraft that have ditched on water. Multiple colours add weight if there are substantial areas of the secondary colours (you tend to paint the base colour and apply other colours over the top) so schemes that are chiefly one colour make more sense - and it makes most sense if the predominant colour is white.

The SR-71 is another special case. Its black paint contained microscopic iron balls to dissipate electromagnetic energy and according to some accounts, reduce radar returns. The SR-71 has a ‘heat sink’ structure unlike most aircraft, and is designed to allow heat to conduct from hot areas to cooler areas (and black is better at radiating heat). But for thermal protection, white is best. Another high flying supersonic military aircraft, the Tupolev Tu-160 is white overall.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Makes a nice change to talk about some high performance kit in a Haas thread :lol:
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TheEngineer
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:13 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:57 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:36 pm


Haas use the same suspension as the Ferrari at the beginning of the season, not sure if they get any upgrades.
Yes the new Ferrari will most likely have the same suspension.
Some things to note:
-more extrem (or noticable) POU offset
-steering rod now separate of the top wishbone
-X & Z axis position looks to be the same
That separated steering rod looks like it could hugely influence the barge board flow structure in lower speed/high lock corners...
Back to the speculation of the F1 car:
How will the split steering rod and wishbone affect the aerodynamics in low speed/high lock corners if their position relative to each other is the same?

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jordangp
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:16 am
Holm86 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:49 pm
I doubt planes will ever be mostly black, weight is a huge factor, but so is heat rejection.

Pepsi cola once made a marketing stunt, where they painted a Concorde in blue, and it wasn't able to fly at its cruise speed for more that 20 minutes, because the fuselage got too hot.

I know that modern airlines doesn't fly at supersonic speeds, but they spend s lot of time on the ground, with their engines turned off, and the engines drives the air-conditioning. So think of a black 787 sitting in the Dubai heat for a couple of hours, and then boarding it :oops:
Are you srue there was not more to the story? Ha

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 37-7H4.jpg


The concorde goes supersonic... But i dont see any increase in radiation from the sun there...
Possibly the blue paint was not a high performing paint?
Paint technology has come on a long way since the Pepsi plane. That Southwest plane, for example, is coated in a high-performance paint developed by PPG, modelled on the properties of an eggplant/aubergine which allow greater solar reflectance to keep the plane cool, so nowadays colour shouldn't have as much effect on heat rejection.

http://corporate.ppg.com/Media/Newsroom ... e-eggplant

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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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TheEngineer wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:57 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:13 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:57 pm


Yes the new Ferrari will most likely have the same suspension.
Some things to note:
-more extrem (or noticable) POU offset
-steering rod now separate of the top wishbone
-X & Z axis position looks to be the same
That separated steering rod looks like it could hugely influence the barge board flow structure in lower speed/high lock corners...
Back to the speculation of the F1 car:
How will the split steering rod and wishbone affect the aerodynamics in low speed/high lock corners if their position relative to each other is the same?
If that side-by-side pic a few pages back is what it looks like, the steering rod now sits in front of the wishbone, and it has an inverted V shape. I would expect that shape would the generate a vortex that would "sweep" back and forth across the barge boards at different lock angles.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQG9zqvWAAU ... ame=medium

Does it appear different to you? I'd like to hear what you think it might be doing as well.

TheEngineer
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:36 pm
TheEngineer wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:57 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:13 pm


That separated steering rod looks like it could hugely influence the barge board flow structure in lower speed/high lock corners...
Back to the speculation of the F1 car:
How will the split steering rod and wishbone affect the aerodynamics in low speed/high lock corners if their position relative to each other is the same?
If that side-by-side pic a few pages back is what it looks like, the steering rod now sits in front of the wishbone, and it has an inverted V shape. I would expect that shape would the generate a vortex that would "sweep" back and forth across the barge boards at different lock angles.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQG9zqvWAAU ... ame=medium

Does it appear different to you? I'd like to hear what you think it might be doing as well.
Thanks for the explanation!

If there was an unwanted vortex, this would have been noticed in the CFD and wind tunnel testing. If Haas wanted a consistent vortex, then i think a shroud would surely allow this.

Saying this, I don't think the shape of the steering arm will generate a vortex. The steering arm is thin at each fixing point, so the increased width in the centre section could just be promoting cleaner airflow through the rest of the upper suspension, although I'm no aerodynamicist.

However, I still can't give a solid guess as to why the wishbone and steering arm are split, although the car at testing could very likely be much different to the released renders.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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jordangp wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:35 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:16 am
Holm86 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:49 pm
I doubt planes will ever be mostly black, weight is a huge factor, but so is heat rejection.

Pepsi cola once made a marketing stunt, where they painted a Concorde in blue, and it wasn't able to fly at its cruise speed for more that 20 minutes, because the fuselage got too hot.

I know that modern airlines doesn't fly at supersonic speeds, but they spend s lot of time on the ground, with their engines turned off, and the engines drives the air-conditioning. So think of a black 787 sitting in the Dubai heat for a couple of hours, and then boarding it :oops:
Are you srue there was not more to the story? Ha

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 37-7H4.jpg


The concorde goes supersonic... But i dont see any increase in radiation from the sun there...
Possibly the blue paint was not a high performing paint?
Paint technology has come on a long way since the Pepsi plane. That Southwest plane, for example, is coated in a high-performance paint developed by PPG, modelled on the properties of an eggplant/aubergine which allow greater solar reflectance to keep the plane cool, so nowadays colour shouldn't have as much effect on heat rejection.

http://corporate.ppg.com/Media/Newsroom ... e-eggplant
=D> =D>
Great post!
This is why I like to question things!

Still some questions of why they didnt allow extended supersonic flight with the old technology paint.. But i guess that is for another time.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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It is split for strength and simplicity reasons.
Tems could encapsulate the steering arm with the control arm.. But then you have to squeeze in the tethers.. And sensor wires.. And you have to make the arm wide enough to make clearance for the rack-ends... So you have a bigger arm than you need... Plus the wide arm possible has some effect aerdynamically.

Not that near the boundary layer of the fuselage.. They narrow the inboard end of the steering arm.. This is to reduce interference of airflow along the fuselage.. With the big ole "all in one" control this would be harder to do.

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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Good piece from Mark Priestly on the Hass 2020 renders, including really enhanced shots of the car


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Thunder
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Re: Haas VF-20 Speculation Thread

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Alright the Car Topic is now Open. Please Proceed over there: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28776
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