Racing Point RP20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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subcritical71
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:56 pm
Is it allowed by the rules to let another team photograph and measure parts of their cars?
I would say its not exactly encouraged!!

But it depends, its now apparently really easy to just take photos of a car from lot of angles and get a fully working concept by the next year quite easily apparently.. :D

Edit: ok i'm being a little bit cheeky there...
Everybody remember the uproar when Ferrari were 'cooling' their cockpit camera. Teams will use any method necessary to get close to their competitors goings on (ie. photo analysis/video analysis/sound analysis/driver inspection/etc). And currently there are no rules about it other than you can't have uninvited physical access to a competitors garage, which may not be a rule but common courtesy.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

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basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:07 pm
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:47 pm
Yes and you cant undo the knowledge they gained, but you are effectively running the 2019 part, you couldn't fit in 2019? Yes...? and now BD are listed.... so you cant do that.. so you cant use a 2019 part... fair enough?
Why wouldn't you be able to use a part you already had in 2019? Afaik there is nothing in the rules that stipulates you could only run a non-listed part you bought in the previous year if you ran it in that year.
"Having" does not matter. In 2020 you are not allowed to run brake ducts from another team. If they would they would get directly DQ. But as they run copies, they do not interfere with the technical rules. The only problem is, that the do not use their own knowledge, but copy things they could only copy from having listed parts...that is not that easy...
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Baulz
Baulz
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:56 pm
Is it allowed by the rules to let another team photograph and measure parts of their cars?
I would say its not exactly encouraged!!

But it depends, its now apparently really easy to just take photos of a car from lot of angles and get a fully working concept by the next year quite easily apparently.. :D

Edit: ok i'm being a little bit cheeky there...
I'm just curious as to what the limit is.

Can a Racing Point team member visit the Mercedes factory?
Can they see the car there? Take pictures, hold the parts, etc.

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:27 pm
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:56 pm
Is it allowed by the rules to let another team photograph and measure parts of their cars?
I would say its not exactly encouraged!!

But it depends, its now apparently really easy to just take photos of a car from lot of angles and get a fully working concept by the next year quite easily apparently.. :D

Edit: ok i'm being a little bit cheeky there...
I'm just curious as to what the limit is.

Can a Racing Point team member visit the Mercedes factory?
Can they see the car there? Take pictures, hold the parts, etc.
It is not that difficult to construct a 3D model of the car
I have seen near perfect replicas in games like rFactor and iracing for years since 2006...all 3d models done from just photos.
A near perfect 3d model in rfactor of the ferrari f1 2008 car.... u can find all cars' photos online
Image
And this made by someone at home with just one computer, imagine what an F1 team will achieve

Image

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Red Rock Mutley
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Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:04 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

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wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 pm
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
The list part rule is along slightly different lines. It says the "competitor shall ... only use Listed Parts which are designed by it". So if you look at the rear brake ducts, the verdict was very clear, Racing Point took the Mercedes design as the starting point for their own design. They altered the dimensions slightly and made numerous other changes, but at the core of the rear brake ducts was the Mercedes design

The front brake duct is the more complex case. Racing Point successfully argued that it would be unfair to unravel every design going back to time in immemorial. Looking back in this thread highlights a number of instances where the transfer of information was permitted and common place

So the Stewards decided it was fair to set a generational clause. They would only go back in time to the last generation of car. They reasoned, this was sufficient to ensure no team gains an advantage by short cutting the design process. A team taking a part from their 2019 car and developing it in to a 2020 part under their own steam was well within the spirit of the regulation as it would (this year) take significant design effort to develop

However, if another team's design was used in the process of developing parts for 2020, then that would breach the regulation

So, the key point is to look at whether another teams design information was used directly in the design process of the 2020 part. The rear brake ducts failed that test, because although the transfer of information took place in late 2018, Racing Point dusted off that information late last year and used it as the basis of their 2020 design

Of course, the elephant in the room here are the other parts on the List Parts table, because at first glance, they also fail the test

ALO_Power
ALO_Power
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:27 pm
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm


I would say its not exactly encouraged!!

But it depends, its now apparently really easy to just take photos of a car from lot of angles and get a fully working concept by the next year quite easily apparently.. :D

Edit: ok i'm being a little bit cheeky there...
I'm just curious as to what the limit is.

Can a Racing Point team member visit the Mercedes factory?
Can they see the car there? Take pictures, hold the parts, etc.
It is not that difficult to construct a 3D model of the car
I have seen near perfect replicas in games like rFactor and iracing for years since 2006...all 3d models done from just photos.
A near perfect 3d model in rfactor of the ferrari f1 2008 car.... u can find all cars' photos online
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... _muBsB2jZU
And this made by someone at home with just one computer, imagine what an F1 team will achieve

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OAtwjr7pYps/maxresdefault.jpg
The F1 2019 Haas is just a picture of the real car :mrgreen:

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

ALO_Power wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:21 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:27 pm


I'm just curious as to what the limit is.

Can a Racing Point team member visit the Mercedes factory?
Can they see the car there? Take pictures, hold the parts, etc.
It is not that difficult to construct a 3D model of the car
I have seen near perfect replicas in games like rFactor and iracing for years since 2006...all 3d models done from just photos.
A near perfect 3d model in rfactor of the ferrari f1 2008 car.... u can find all cars' photos online
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... _muBsB2jZU
And this made by someone at home with just one computer, imagine what an F1 team will achieve

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OAtwjr7pYps/maxresdefault.jpg
The F1 2019 Haas is just a picture of the real car :mrgreen:
LoL :lol:, thank you for correcting it, just realized that :lol:

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Racing Point RP20

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The rp is more different from the w10 than what the haas is to Ferrari. The side pods are totally different as are the barge boards and the y-250 area. The haas is damn near an exact copy. Let’s face it the rear brake ducts aren’t the issue here, Renault and Ferrari are only complaining because they are getting beat. And it’s not the rear brake ducts making them competitive. If you think about it technically rp will be running a 2 year old car next year with the way the regulations are now pushing the aero changes for 2022

Edit: I just wanted to add that with the simple front wing rules came into effect Alfa showed up with a near identical front wing/idealology to Ferrari also....

basti313
basti313
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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:07 pm


Why wouldn't you be able to use a part you already had in 2019? Afaik there is nothing in the rules that stipulates you could only run a non-listed part you bought in the previous year if you ran it in that year.
"Having" does not matter. In 2020 you are not allowed to run brake ducts from another team. If they would they would get directly DQ. But as they run copies, they do not interfere with the technical rules. The only problem is, that the do not use their own knowledge, but copy things they could only copy from having listed parts...that is not that easy...
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
They did not "own" the design in 2019. They bought some brake ducts they were allowed to fit to the car. Transferring design data is and was forbidden. That is the actual problem, that the rule does not really define the point of the design...if you can copy it from the part you have in your hand or not because on one hand the direct transfer is forbidden but you do it indirectly.

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Morteza
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: Racing Point RP20

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Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:38 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

"Having" does not matter. In 2020 you are not allowed to run brake ducts from another team. If they would they would get directly DQ. But as they run copies, they do not interfere with the technical rules. The only problem is, that the do not use their own knowledge, but copy things they could only copy from having listed parts...that is not that easy...
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
They did not "own" the design in 2019. They bought some brake ducts they were allowed to fit to the car. Transferring design data is and was forbidden. That is the actual problem, that the rule does not really define the point of the design...if you can copy it from the part you have in your hand or not because on one hand the direct transfer is forbidden but you do it indirectly.
Data transfer is not forbidden for the unlisted parts, that is why they received them last season and their Front brake duct is declared legal.

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:52 am

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:22 pm
ALO_Power wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:21 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:29 pm

It is not that difficult to construct a 3D model of the car
I have seen near perfect replicas in games like rFactor and iracing for years since 2006...all 3d models done from just photos.
A near perfect 3d model in rfactor of the ferrari f1 2008 car.... u can find all cars' photos online
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... _muBsB2jZU
And this made by someone at home with just one computer, imagine what an F1 team will achieve

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OAtwjr7pYps/maxresdefault.jpg
The F1 2019 Haas is just a picture of the real car :mrgreen:
LoL :lol:, thank you for correcting it, just realized that :lol:
The comparison is that the 3D models can be done by just a guy at home with a computer...
I think that might be doing a disservice to game designers, it isnt sone sweaty teemager in his bedroom. There are huge teams used to create games... plus the models simply need to ‘look’ like the cars, there is no aero effect in the game at all, its all parameters in tge game physics..
RP have managed to copy a car and get it working very well, something that hasnt been achieved by numerous other teams. They have takem shortcuts by bolting on parts which they havent designed themselvee despite buying them legslly the year before.. how much help did they get?
Well they were using a merc windtunnel to fine tune a merc design...
Go figure...

No trolling anybody, anyone.. just challenging the concept they followed...
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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Big Tea
137
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:38 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

"Having" does not matter. In 2020 you are not allowed to run brake ducts from another team. If they would they would get directly DQ. But as they run copies, they do not interfere with the technical rules. The only problem is, that the do not use their own knowledge, but copy things they could only copy from having listed parts...that is not that easy...
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
They did not "own" the design in 2019. They bought some brake ducts they were allowed to fit to the car. Transferring design data is and was forbidden. That is the actual problem, that the rule does not really define the point of the design...if you can copy it from the part you have in your hand or not because on one hand the direct transfer is forbidden but you do it indirectly.
They legally had the CAD file for the ducts (last year)
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Baulz wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:27 pm
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm


I would say its not exactly encouraged!!

But it depends, its now apparently really easy to just take photos of a car from lot of angles and get a fully working concept by the next year quite easily apparently.. :D

Edit: ok i'm being a little bit cheeky there...
I'm just curious as to what the limit is.

Can a Racing Point team member visit the Mercedes factory?
Can they see the car there? Take pictures, hold the parts, etc.
It is not that difficult to construct a 3D model of the car
I have seen near perfect replicas in games like rFactor and iracing for years since 2006...all 3d models done from just photos.
A near perfect 3d model in rfactor of the ferrari f1 2008 car.... u can find all cars' photos online
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... _muBsB2jZU
And this made by someone at home with just one computer, imagine what an F1 team will achieve

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OAtwjr7pYps/maxresdefault.jpg
I’m pretty sure codemasters actually laser scans the cars for the f1 game, so it it wouldn’t be hard to extract the 3D model off the game to put you in the ball park. Plus with all the other data you can gather with photos or 3D camera and cad files they have purchased

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
197
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: Racing Point RP20

Post

Big Tea wrote:
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:38 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 pm
But if they owned the design in 2019, how does that make said ducts 'from another team'? The weird situation that occurs here seems to be that official transfer from "bought" to "own creation" occurs when you run it in a session in the season it was allowed in.
They did not "own" the design in 2019. They bought some brake ducts they were allowed to fit to the car. Transferring design data is and was forbidden. That is the actual problem, that the rule does not really define the point of the design...if you can copy it from the part you have in your hand or not because on one hand the direct transfer is forbidden but you do it indirectly.
They legally had the CAD file for the ducts (last year)
No one is arguing if they got the files legally... That’s not the issue... The argument is that the rules clearly define that the listed parts can’t be designed by a competitor in 2020.

The RBD’s were “designed” by Mercedes... Regardless of when the design was made, when the design was bought, it is not RP’s, therefore they don’t comply with the rules for listed parts in 2020.

I don’t know the details for the FBD’s, but if they used them last year and modify them from the original design and argument could be made that the design is RP’s.

But, the fact that a team may have used or not a part in 2019 should be irrelevant when considering that the rule is clear that listed parts have to be “designed” by the teams and the design can’t be “outsourced” or “manufactured” by a competitor.


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