Ferrari SF1000

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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gordonthegun
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:33 pm
Location: Gorgonzola (Milan), Italy.

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:01 am
I wonder if the PSU has heat management issues and a colder weather helped with the qualifying performance.
I really don't think so. PU has FIA management issues.
PU has clearly been modified in a hurry after the agreement with FIA, without a decent alternative to the trick that "probably" was not compliant to the rules (FIA never found actual proof to this).
Without the power of the engine, nothing works: tyres, aerodynamics and so on.

timbo
timbo
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:03 pm
timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:01 am
I wonder if the PSU has heat management issues and a colder weather helped with the qualifying performance.
I really don't think so. PU has FIA management issues.
PU has clearly been modified in a hurry after the agreement with FIA, without a decent alternative to the trick that "probably" was not compliant to the rules (FIA never found actual proof to this).
Without the power of the engine, nothing works: tyres, aerodynamics and so on.
But we don't really know what really was the mechanism (supposedly fuel flow trickery) and what are the aftereffects.
For example, maybe higher fuel flow was really not to extract more caloric energy but was allowing them to run richer mixture to keep knocking under control (in the first turbo era engines ran such a rich mixture, the exhaust looked almost like a cold diesel). Colder temperature helps with knock prevention too.

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gordonthegun
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Location: Gorgonzola (Milan), Italy.

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 pm
gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:03 pm
timbo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:01 am
I wonder if the PSU has heat management issues and a colder weather helped with the qualifying performance.
I really don't think so. PU has FIA management issues.
PU has clearly been modified in a hurry after the agreement with FIA, without a decent alternative to the trick that "probably" was not compliant to the rules (FIA never found actual proof to this).
Without the power of the engine, nothing works: tyres, aerodynamics and so on.
But we don't really know what really was the mechanism (supposedly fuel flow trickery) and what are the aftereffects.
For example, maybe higher fuel flow was really not to extract more caloric energy but was allowing them to run richer mixture to keep knocking under control (in the first turbo era engines ran such a rich mixture, the exhaust looked almost like a cold diesel). Colder temperature helps with knock prevention too.
That would mean a big use of fuel not for power, which is rather unlikely with the existing limits on total amount of fuel.
I think knocking is one of the first thing to consider and to keep under control in an F1 engine and probably this is obtained through a particularly high octane number of the fuel.

Nobody knows anything about the trick, above all if the trick is really out of the rules and at the same time, nobody knows everything about the agreement, and maybe Ferrari will get some advantage in some way too, for accepting a so big punishment without any proof of being really guilty (next year? since 2022?).

gshevlin
gshevlin
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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I think it is as simple as the SF1000 being a high-downforce car built for a more powerful PU. When Ferrari had to modify their PU after the settlement with the FIA, the car then had too much drag relative to the PU capability. Attempts to remove downforce quickly to reduce drag led to the car becoming unstable and difficult to drive.
Ferrari will have a new PU in 2021. They now have to create a new aerodynamic concept for the 2021 car.

timbo
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:11 pm
Nobody knows anything about the trick
Yes, and I was only hypothesizing about knocking.
But all Ferrari-powered cars suddenly made big gain in qualifying.
It would be interesting thing to check if we have more cold races.

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gordonthegun
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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timbo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:41 pm
gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:11 pm
Nobody knows anything about the trick
Yes, and I was only hypothesizing about knocking.
But all Ferrari-powered cars suddenly made big gain in qualifying.
It would be interesting thing to check if we have more cold races.
An engine so low in power can find improvements in strange or unexpected ways.

Maybe it's a matter of intercoolers, that in cold conditions can give cooler (and then richer in oxygen) air to the combustion chambers, allowing more fuel to be injected.

I remember someone saying that Ferrari trick might have been to let the liquid of the intercoolers go into the combustion chambers and there resulting in an additive for getting more power (the same trick for the engine oil).

So Ferrari might have been obliged by the FIA to change intercooling system at the last minute, losing efficiency right there and improving now more than the others in cold conditions.

f1316
f1316
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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timbo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:41 pm
gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:11 pm
Nobody knows anything about the trick
Yes, and I was only hypothesizing about knocking.
But all Ferrari-powered cars suddenly made big gain in qualifying.
It would be interesting thing to check if we have more cold races.
I think you’re spot on. We’ve seen the large cooling outlets as a mainstay on the Ferrari engine cover throughout this year and I personally am surprised that, when you look at the engine layout under the hood, their packaging isn’t much more ‘form fitting’ per the Mercedes (there seems to scope for much tighter packaging that they’re not taking). Both of which point to some kind of cooling issue which they didn’t expect when initially designing the car (I.e. the PU TDS).

To now see a jump in performance from all Ferrari powered cars at the same race, the only real cool race we’ve had, seems too much of a coincidence.

What exactly has caused this is harder to say - but I think it’s reasonable to speculate that some kind of previous oil usage was also helping them regulate temperature/prevent knocking or something of that nature. It could also go some way to explaining why the Ferrari’s PU’s base level performance is so bad - i.e. when removing the ‘tricks’ it’s become the worst PU and I think a lot of people were surprised that the underlying power is not better - as it may be that they’re just not able to run it as they would like.

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gordonthegun
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Location: Gorgonzola (Milan), Italy.

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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f1316 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:20 am
timbo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:41 pm
gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:11 pm
Nobody knows anything about the trick
Yes, and I was only hypothesizing about knocking.
But all Ferrari-powered cars suddenly made big gain in qualifying.
It would be interesting thing to check if we have more cold races.
I think you’re spot on. We’ve seen the large cooling outlets as a mainstay on the Ferrari engine cover throughout this year and I personally am surprised that, when you look at the engine layout under the hood, their packaging isn’t much more ‘form fitting’ per the Mercedes (there seems to scope for much tighter packaging that they’re not taking). Both of which point to some kind of cooling issue which they didn’t expect when initially designing the car (I.e. the PU TDS).

To now see a jump in performance from all Ferrari powered cars at the same race, the only real cool race we’ve had, seems too much of a coincidence.

What exactly has caused this is harder to say - but I think it’s reasonable to speculate that some kind of previous oil usage was also helping them regulate temperature/prevent knocking or something of that nature. It could also go some way to explaining why the Ferrari’s PU’s base level performance is so bad - i.e. when removing the ‘tricks’ it’s become the worst PU and I think a lot of people were surprised that the underlying power is not better - as it may be that they’re just not able to run it as they would like.
I agree about the cooling issues, but, for what I can remember, Ferrari has been using extremely large cooling outlets since at least five years and the same is true for Ferrari powered cars.
Only in 2018 (the best Ferrari car since hybrid era, in my opinion), I was surprised to see smaller rear cooling outlets.
In 2019 I saw them become bigger again and the same now.
So, it's clear that for some reason Ferrari needs bigger rear outlets.
It might also be not for cooling but for aerodynamics purposes, to slow the flow of the air with a bigger channelling, to interact in a profitable way with other flows down there or simply to reduce internal sidepods drag.
I don't know, but in this scenario, it's very difficult to understand what is an old or a new problem.
Last edited by gordonthegun on Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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godlameroso
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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f1316 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:20 am
timbo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:41 pm
gordonthegun wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:11 pm
Nobody knows anything about the trick
Yes, and I was only hypothesizing about knocking.
But all Ferrari-powered cars suddenly made big gain in qualifying.
It would be interesting thing to check if we have more cold races.
I think you’re spot on. We’ve seen the large cooling outlets as a mainstay on the Ferrari engine cover throughout this year and I personally am surprised that, when you look at the engine layout under the hood, their packaging isn’t much more ‘form fitting’ per the Mercedes (there seems to scope for much tighter packaging that they’re not taking). Both of which point to some kind of cooling issue which they didn’t expect when initially designing the car (I.e. the PU TDS).

To now see a jump in performance from all Ferrari powered cars at the same race, the only real cool race we’ve had, seems too much of a coincidence.

What exactly has caused this is harder to say - but I think it’s reasonable to speculate that some kind of previous oil usage was also helping them regulate temperature/prevent knocking or something of that nature. It could also go some way to explaining why the Ferrari’s PU’s base level performance is so bad - i.e. when removing the ‘tricks’ it’s become the worst PU and I think a lot of people were surprised that the underlying power is not better - as it may be that they’re just not able to run it as they would like.
Oil does the exact opposite of helping to reduce knock, it actually lowers the octane rating of gasoline, rotary engines have to run extremely rich because of their propensity to mix oil with fuel. Running them a little leaner greatly increases propensity for detonation, while good for turbine response, the weak apex seals just can't handle it, which is why tuning rotaries for power is such a black art.
Saishū kōnā

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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I think that it'll be much better for Ferrari next year. In an interview with Simone Resta (new guy, will be designing/refining the 2021 chassis), Ferrari have seen the most potential for performance in the rear of the car. Ferrari are going to spend the 2 tokens on changing the rear of the chassis next year. Plus they'll have a completely new engine.
As ppl here have pointed out recently, i think that due to the sudden engine change, Ferrari had to open up the car a bit more overall becoz of cooling issues (2019 rear was tighter than 2020 rear) which is giving them unnecessary drag. A new engine and a specific chassis change just might bring them back into fighting form :wink:

SAEED
SAEED
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Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:17 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:08 pm
I think that it'll be much better for Ferrari next year. In an interview with Simone Resta (new guy, will be designing/refining the 2021 chassis), Ferrari have seen the most potential for performance in the rear of the car. Ferrari are going to spend the 2 tokens on changing the rear of the chassis next year. Plus they'll have a completely new engine.
As ppl here have pointed out recently, i think that due to the sudden engine change, Ferrari had to open up the car a bit more overall becoz of cooling issues (2019 rear was tighter than 2020 rear) which is giving them unnecessary drag. A new engine and a specific chassis change just might bring them back into fighting form :wink:
Simone Resta's not a new guy.

f1316
f1316
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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SAEED wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:54 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:08 pm
I think that it'll be much better for Ferrari next year. In an interview with Simone Resta (new guy, will be designing/refining the 2021 chassis), Ferrari have seen the most potential for performance in the rear of the car. Ferrari are going to spend the 2 tokens on changing the rear of the chassis next year. Plus they'll have a completely new engine.
As ppl here have pointed out recently, i think that due to the sudden engine change, Ferrari had to open up the car a bit more overall becoz of cooling issues (2019 rear was tighter than 2020 rear) which is giving them unnecessary drag. A new engine and a specific chassis change just might bring them back into fighting form :wink:
Simone Resta's not a new guy.
No, but he is returning from Alfa - he likely had no part to play in either of the last two cars (having designed the previous two).

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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I wonder how much they can realistically claw back. They were around 2.5 seconds per lap slower in race pace at the Nurburgring than Mercedes. That's a huge amount.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Schippke
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Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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There is talk of some more updates coming for the next race too... will be interesting to see what parts they continue to develop next. If we take Charles' pace over the weekend (and the conditions as well that may have played a part), he looked to have a solid turn in speed in qualifying. Despite the poor race pace on the Soft tyre (which the team mentioned was graining badly for them during the race), the car looked solid on the Medium tyre. Had it not been for the VSC and later Safety car, I think Charles might've managed to snag 5th, but hopefully a sign of the car... and team, moving in the right direction again, and giving them more confidence about their development into 2021/2022.

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

SAEED wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:54 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:08 pm
I think that it'll be much better for Ferrari next year. In an interview with Simone Resta (new guy, will be designing/refining the 2021 chassis), Ferrari have seen the most potential for performance in the rear of the car. Ferrari are going to spend the 2 tokens on changing the rear of the chassis next year. Plus they'll have a completely new engine.
As ppl here have pointed out recently, i think that due to the sudden engine change, Ferrari had to open up the car a bit more overall becoz of cooling issues (2019 rear was tighter than 2020 rear) which is giving them unnecessary drag. A new engine and a specific chassis change just might bring them back into fighting form :wink:
Simone Resta's not a new guy.
Ofc, I know. But he came back last year in 2019 November, when the chassis for 2020 was already done and Ferrari asked him to work on the then 2021chassis. In his own words, he had no hand in developing the current chassis.