Ferrari SF1000

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Tzk
Tzk
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Silent Storm wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:59 pm
High downforce would have made sure they qualified higher. As for the race it's easy to defend if you have higher downforce
High DF makes sure you got the tires in their window, but downforce induces drag. And too much drag will result in a sitting duck on the straights. Ferrari is already slow on the straights, if they add more DF then basically every other team will fly past them with DRS. You can only compensate a tiny bit with higher speeds on the corners before driving down the straights.

You always run as much drag (and DF) you can affort without other teams catching you on the straights and you still try to keep speeds on the corners high. Now we had a wet qualy and we'll have a dry race. Thus the setup is always a compromise.

LM10
LM10
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:12 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:55 pm
and I think this is what he meant when he said he is building a new engine for 2021 (now 2022).
Is that allowed? Aren't engines partially frozen to 2020 specification?
ICE, MGU-H and TC are frozen until the end of 2020 season. MGU-K, CE and ES can still be be upgraded once this season.
Going into the 2021 season, teams can come up with an entirely new PU (and can upgrade every part once in that season). For the start of 2022 and 2023 seasons teams will be allowed to come up with an almost entirely new PU again. I’m saying almost because regarding MGU-K, CE and ES, teams will
need to choose if they want to bring new ones at the beginning of 2022 or 2023 as these parts will have stricter limitation. As for in-season upgrades I don’t know if that will be allowed from 2022 on. Maybe someone knows.
It will be in 2023 when the whole PU will be frozen until 2025.

If I was Ferrari I would be focusing on putting the majority of the recourses into the development of the engine. And I sincerely hope they’re doing that in the background right now. The PU is the only part on the 2022 car which they’re allowed to work on in the current season. Other than that, the development of that car has been postponed to next season by the FIA. They need to sort out the PU problems before financial limitations come into action next season.
I know they can build a powerful engine. Their trickery and the FIA even not being able tell what’s been wrong actually shows you that they had a good understanding of the PU. I hope they’ll come up with clever solutions again, but this time please legally clever.

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F1Krof
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Can they revert back to 2019's car?
Wroom wroom

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Moore77
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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F1Krof wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 am
Can they revert back to 2019's car?
They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
F1Krof wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 am
Can they revert back to 2019's car?
They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
Last year's engine with additional fuel sensor would still be better than this one, if Ferrari's trick was (only) burning more fuel. Also it wouldn't require building entirely new PU. This year's engine looks like on 2016. levels. It's like FIA deleted 3 years of development for Ferrari. If Ferrari could build decent aero and play their politics right Mercedes/Honda engine would be under heavy scrutinizing as well. They seem completely lost and Binnoto seems overwhelmed.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

wowgr8
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am

They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
That's not how it works. The 2019 car was all engine. Bring it out against the 2020 field without the 2019 PU and it's battling the Alfas and Haas if its lucky. The 2020 car with the 2019 PU would've been battling Mercedes

Bill
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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I don't get why my post is being deleted it's juvenile ferrari cheated moderators should moderate or pretend to not be bitter fans.

Ferrari pu was not illegal because Mercedes and RbrHonda played better politics and it was illegal because they break the rules.

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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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wowgr8 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:33 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am

They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
That's not how it works. The 2019 car was all engine. Bring it out against the 2020 field without the 2019 PU and it's battling the Alfas and Haas if its lucky. The 2020 car with the 2019 PU would've been battling Mercedes

Last years Mercedes seems to be doing Ok in pink though
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Moore77
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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One and Only wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:24 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
F1Krof wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 am
Can they revert back to 2019's car?
They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
Last year's engine with additional fuel sensor would still be better than this one, if Ferrari's trick was (only) burning more fuel. Also it wouldn't require building entirely new PU. This year's engine looks like on 2016. levels. It's like FIA deleted 3 years of development for Ferrari. If Ferrari could build decent aero and play their politics right Mercedes/Honda engine would be under heavy scrutinizing as well. They seem completely lost and Binnoto seems overwhelmed.
When did Ferrari claim they built or building a new PU? Whatever so called trick is, lies at the combustion chamber where they push more fuel. If there is an additional FIA sensor for more accuracy and if that is where Ferrari has caught out, they probably have a system that need to stop from pushing excess fuel, which it seems to be doing now.

But throughout the past 6 to 8 months, the PU is going through an all round development in a variety of areas like, Turbo, combustion efficiency itself, ERS components, driveability enhancements etc., and Shell making advancement in their fuels. So, they don't have to build a new one and I don't think they have claimed anywhere that they have built a new one. They might have lost power, but there should also be more power coming from supplementary development around PU, which should offset the bigger loss to some extent. This PU is not at 2016 level. That would be insane to say the least.

This year's chassis might be very draggy like they claim, which is perfectly plausible having seen Williams in the last couple of years. A great Mercedes PU but a draggy car making them as much as 3 to 4 seconds a lap slower compared to Mercedes. Essentially, Ferrari's problem might not be all PU alone.

So, that is my hypothesis that, last year's chassis, coupled with this year's PU should still be competent in the top 3.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

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One and Only
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:43 am
One and Only wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:24 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
Last year's engine with additional fuel sensor would still be better than this one, if Ferrari's trick was (only) burning more fuel. Also it wouldn't require building entirely new PU. This year's engine looks like on 2016. levels. It's like FIA deleted 3 years of development for Ferrari. If Ferrari could build decent aero and play their politics right Mercedes/Honda engine would be under heavy scrutinizing as well. They seem completely lost and Binnoto seems overwhelmed.
When did Ferrari claim they built or building a new PU? Whatever so called trick is, lies at the combustion chamber where they push more fuel. If there is an additional FIA sensor for more accuracy and if that is where Ferrari has caught out, they probably have a system that need to stop from pushing excess fuel, which it seems to be doing now.

But throughout the past 6 to 8 months, the PU is going through an all round development in a variety of areas like, Turbo, combustion efficiency itself, ERS components, driveability enhancements etc., and Shell making advancement in their fuels. So, they don't have to build a new one and I don't think they have claimed anywhere that they have built a new one. They might have lost power, but there should also be more power coming from supplementary development around PU, which should offset the bigger loss to some extent. This PU is not at 2016 level. That would be insane to say the least.

This year's chassis might be very draggy like they claim, which is perfectly plausible having seen Williams in the last couple of years. A great Mercedes PU but a draggy car making them as much as 3 to 4 seconds a lap slower compared to Mercedes. Essentially, Ferrari's problem might not be all PU alone.

So, that is my hypothesis that, last year's chassis, coupled with this year's PU should still be competent in the top 3.
I think Binotto said they will build new PU for 2020. as foundation for future rules (2021.-2026.).
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

JPBD1990
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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donskar wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:34 am
I'm a Ferrari fan; have been since the 1960s. I wonder: is it time for Ferrari to reconsider their commitment to F1? Is losing badly in F1 a positive marketing exercise?
Weak engine. Poor aero. No sign of improvement on the horizon (updates don't work). Where is that light at the end of the tunnel?
I’ve been a Ferrari fan for half my life, which is evidently much less time than you - only since 2005. However, to think Ferrari should or would want to quit because they’re doing poorly seems incredibly short sighted. You yourself have lived through their longest losing streak in history. Should they have quit then? Then 1999-2008 would never have happened...

I think what they do need to do is change their processes, upgrade their equipment, invest. Do they need a new wind tunnel? Do they need better CFD/CFD engineers? There is nothing that Mercedes or redbull can do that Ferrari can’t. They need to figure out what they’re doing differently, to the negative, and change it. I don’t mean just firing everyone though. We’ve tried that every few years since 2008 too, and well... that’s lead us here. Time to try the next thing.

FDD
FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:38 pm
donskar wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:34 am
I'm a Ferrari fan; have been since the 1960s. I wonder: is it time for Ferrari to reconsider their commitment to F1? Is losing badly in F1 a positive marketing exercise?
Weak engine. Poor aero. No sign of improvement on the horizon (updates don't work). Where is that light at the end of the tunnel?
I’ve been a Ferrari fan for half my life, which is evidently much less time than you - only since 2005. However, to think Ferrari should or would want to quit because they’re doing poorly seems incredibly short sighted. You yourself have lived through their longest losing streak in history. Should they have quit then? Then 1999-2008 would never have happened...

I think what they do need to do is change their processes, upgrade their equipment, invest. Do they need a new wind tunnel? Do they need better CFD/CFD engineers? There is nothing that Mercedes or redbull can do that Ferrari can’t. They need to figure out what they’re doing differently, to the negative, and change it. I don’t mean just firing everyone though. We’ve tried that every few years since 2008 too, and well... that’s lead us here. Time to try the next thing.
I agree

grubschumi13
grubschumi13
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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I think Binotto is one of the teams biggest problems here. I find him incredibly indecisive.

We saw this last year, Ferrari under him could not decide early often choosing to do nothing instead of taking a firm decision to let the faster driver at the time by or not and by the time they did it was way too late to recover. They didn't have the pace to recover anyway.

He said at the beginning of last season Vettel will have priority, by Singapore / Russia the team found themselves having to explain themselves to Charles and trying to swap them from a 1-2 when neither driver was in the championship.

In Brazil, under him the team was slow to stop the drivers racing each other, they were safe from behind and not challenging anyone in front.

End of the season, he said we are going with high down force, before we started the season he said we are changing philosophy completely with an upgrade in Hungary.

Where is his conviction? I think this kind of leadership gives the impression he is really questioning himself and 2nd guessing himself.

wowgr8
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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grubschumi13 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:27 pm
I think Binotto is one of the teams biggest problems here. I find him incredibly indecisive.

We saw this last year, Ferrari under him could not decide early often choosing to do nothing instead of taking a firm decision to let the faster driver at the time by or not and by the time they did it was way too late to recover. They didn't have the pace to recover anyway.

He said at the beginning of last season Vettel will have priority, by Singapore / Russia the team found themselves having to explain themselves to Charles and trying to swap them from a 1-2 when neither driver was in the championship.

In Brazil, under him the team was slow to stop the drivers racing each other, they were safe from behind and not challenging anyone in front.

End of the season, he said we are going with high down force, before we started the season he said we are changing philosophy completely with an upgrade in Hungary.

Where is his conviction? I think this kind of leadership gives the impression he is really questioning himself and 2nd guessing himself.
A team principal speaking to media (especially during a crisis like this) and how they're dealing with the issues behind the scenes are completely different. Binotto says the safest thing for the media and fans to hear. And the 2020 change of philosophy is not his doing, he's no longer CTO, he just reports what the technical department are telling him, he's also said nothing about what direction the car is going in, he just said it's a change of direction.

Brazil 2019 was all on the drivers, Ferrari did the right thing and let them race, team orders would've been unnecessary and resulted in backlash from everyone. As for the 2019 driver management I think Ferrari did their best to handle such a hot situation, no amount of preparation prepares you for the moment when your drivers are squabbling on track and arguing over the radio, they were right to give Vettel priority at the start but as the year went on it was clear Leclerc deserved parity, did you want them to treat Leclerc like Raikkonen when Leclerc was outperforming Vettel?

C Plinius Secundus
C Plinius Secundus
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Re: Ferrari SF1000

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One and Only wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:24 am
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
F1Krof wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 am
Can they revert back to 2019's car?
They should simply do that. Assuming the engine has lost out due to new FIA fuel sensor checks, to the tune of 40 HP, they would end up being around half a second slower on Red Bull Ring. Previous car would still be a clear third best!

FIA first came looking for them in October last year and it was clear of the additional fuel flow sensor coming in 2020. Since then, they should have worked on enhancing the PU performance and they should have clawed back some of that lost 40 HP. If this not far fetched to assume, then they should still be competing with Red Bull for 2nd place with last year's car with this year's PU. They can at least attempt it with Vettel, like Haas did last year post mid season when they went back to Melbourne spec car and that was actually a better car! Ferrari has nothing to lose.
Last year's engine with additional fuel sensor would still be better than this one, if Ferrari's trick was (only) burning more fuel. Also it wouldn't require building entirely new PU. This year's engine looks like on 2016. levels. It's like FIA deleted 3 years of development for Ferrari. If Ferrari could build decent aero and play their politics right Mercedes/Honda engine would be under heavy scrutinizing as well. They seem completely lost and Binnoto seems overwhelmed.
Binotto seems completely overwhelmed and probably is, but not because of lack of talent, he is an excellent engineer, but maybe the team principal position is just not the right place for him. If things don't improve, and fast, we're going to see the old Ferrari tradition of 'licenziamenti' (firing people left, right and center) again very soon, and then wait for another couple of years, and so on...