Mercedes W11

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jh199
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Re: Mercedes W11

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:04 pm

I think you might be looking at it a little to simply. The underlying tech allows the drivers to adjust toe on the fly. I'd be willing to bet that range of adjustment and the stop locations are all adjustable. By that I mean On one track total range of movement might be 2 degrees and on another it might be 6. On one track the stops might be at +4 and 0 degrees, at another it might be +2 and -2. Several factors are going to go into determining how DAS is configured, and it's going to be tire allocation, track, and weather dependent. Probability of a safety car is probably considered as well. You also need to keep the Ackerman in mind as well.
Perhaps I am underthinking it. If pulling the wheel toward you results in a negative toe angle then I totally understand the system. I was assuming the toe angle just went to 0 degrees. In this case, the inner and outer edge can be heated separately as Big Tea has mentioned.

Alright, thanks all. I'll drop this topic now

Wynters
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Probably the wrong year for this (and a clickbait title) but an interesting (if basic) vid on Mercedes 'controversial' wheel rims...


dans79
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Re: Mercedes W11

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jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:28 pm
Perhaps I am underthinking it. If pulling the wheel toward you results in a negative toe angle then I totally understand the system. I was assuming the toe angle just went to 0 degrees. In this case, the inner and outer edge can be heated separately as Big Tea has mentioned.
Depending on the mechanism used to make the adjustment, even what happens when you push/pull on the wheel could be alterable.

consider an inline rack and pinion system where the pinion is above the rack, and is connected to the steering column with linkages. If the linkage connects to the pinion above the center of rotation then pushing the wheel forward would move the rack backwards. Simply rotating the pinion so that the linkage connects below the center of rotation, would now cause the rack to move forward when when the wheel was pushed forward. Another benefit of this set-up is that reciprocating motion is non linear, thus allowing for a nonlinear response to the drivers input.

To be clear I'm not saying this is what Mercedes is doing, it was just an example to show possibilities.
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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Merc wrapped up development on the ‘20 car quite some time ago.

They can now focus on clawing back all the downforce cut from the ‘21 cars.

Makes me wonder why RB are still devoting so many resources to this year. With reduced floor surface area, no more floor slots, reduced diffuser slat height/length, and other critical changes next year, the ‘21 cars are going to have to be vastly different to recover efficient downforce.


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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W11

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:33 am
jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:22 am
Would someone mind explaining to me how DAS is used to heat the tires? The way I understand it is that using DAS reduces the front toe out. Toe out increases front tire scrubbing so using DAS would decrease tire scrub. Tire scrub can be used to heat the tires. So how does reducing tire scrub result in increasing front temperature?

Sorry if this is a silly question. I just genuinely don't understand how they use it to heat the fronts.
Great question. Basically, the tires will heat up more evenly across the width of the tread when they're running fully upright, as opposed to the toe-out configuration.

In other words, a critical element of heating the tires is not just "peak" heating, but *uniform* heating across the width of the tread for maximum grip/consistency.

Hope I explained that clearly.
Not sure about this....

In both cases the tye is upright. Just at it rolls in a different driection to the where the car is going. (different toe)

At zero toe the tyre has less rolling resitance. Scrub is less. Heating should be less.

At some non-zero angle of toe, the track surface drags the tyres in addition to rolling them. There is scrub. This works the tyre more.

Rosberg was commenting on it actually. He reckons the DAS as used at the Nurbugring was used to make toe-in on the straights.

Seems Mercedes rather heat the tyres with toe-in than toe-out.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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jh199
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Re: Mercedes W11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:09 pm

Not sure about this....

In both cases the tye is upright. Just at it rolls in a different driection to the where the car is going. (different toe)

At zero toe the tyre has less rolling resitance. Scrub is less. Heating should be less.

At some non-zero angle of toe, the track surface drags the tyres in addition to rolling them. There is scrub. This works the tyre more.

Rosberg was commenting on it actually. He reckons the DAS as used at the Nurbugring was used to make toe-in on the straights.

Seems Mercedes rather heat the tyres with toe-in than toe-out.
Well, the conclusion that I've come to over the last two pages of discussion is that DAS allows the driver to pull the steering wheel in and put the front tires into a toe-in condition. This would allow the driver to heat the inner and outer edge (like what Big Tea said) and thus would allow for more even surface heating (like what Zibby43 said)

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:09 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:33 am
jh199 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:22 am
Would someone mind explaining to me how DAS is used to heat the tires? The way I understand it is that using DAS reduces the front toe out. Toe out increases front tire scrubbing so using DAS would decrease tire scrub. Tire scrub can be used to heat the tires. So how does reducing tire scrub result in increasing front temperature?

Sorry if this is a silly question. I just genuinely don't understand how they use it to heat the fronts.
Great question. Basically, the tires will heat up more evenly across the width of the tread when they're running fully upright, as opposed to the toe-out configuration.

In other words, a critical element of heating the tires is not just "peak" heating, but *uniform* heating across the width of the tread for maximum grip/consistency.

Hope I explained that clearly.
Not sure about this....

In both cases the tye is upright. Just at it rolls in a different driection to the where the car is going. (different toe)

At zero toe the tyre has less rolling resitance. Scrub is less. Heating should be less.

At some non-zero angle of toe, the track surface drags the tyres in addition to rolling them. There is scrub. This works the tyre more.

Rosberg was commenting on it actually. He reckons the DAS as used at the Nurbugring was used to make toe-in on the straights.

Seems Mercedes rather heat the tyres with toe-in than toe-out.
Dug this up from an article back in February.

“If the mechanism works as assumed, the [effect of deploying the device will mean the] tyres will be heated more evenly across their width as they run fully upright, but the benefits of toe-out can still be deployed into the corner. It will be of particular benefit on circuits with long straights.”

Image

https://www.racingspirit.com/blog/merce ... explained/

I guess they have scope for manipulation from circuit to circuit, depending on circuit characteristics.

But as I was saying before, there's definitely a difference between trying to achieve peak heating and trying to achieve uniform temperature across the surface of the tire.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W11

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jh199 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:31 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:09 pm

Not sure about this....

In both cases the tye is upright. Just at it rolls in a different driection to the where the car is going. (different toe)

At zero toe the tyre has less rolling resitance. Scrub is less. Heating should be less.

At some non-zero angle of toe, the track surface drags the tyres in addition to rolling them. There is scrub. This works the tyre more.

Rosberg was commenting on it actually. He reckons the DAS as used at the Nurbugring was used to make toe-in on the straights.

Seems Mercedes rather heat the tyres with toe-in than toe-out.
Well, the conclusion that I've come to over the last two pages of discussion is that DAS allows the driver to pull the steering wheel in and put the front tires into a toe-in condition. This would allow the driver to heat the inner and outer edge (like what Big Tea said) and thus would allow for more even surface heating (like what Zibby43 said)
Other than wheel scrub, I think toe-in is prefered over toe-out in DAS operation because it is better for aerodynamic reasons. The air flow through the brake ducts is slightly reduced and tyre wake is also less disturbed in toe-in.

Not entirely sold on the inner edge versus outer edge tyre heating thing yet... Trying to see how you would dicern that from couple degrees st most of toe-in. I think the camber angle and tyre pressure have an overshadowing influence on that. I will re-read those posts however.
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Phlumbert
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Re: Mercedes W11

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zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:35 pm
Merc wrapped up development on the ‘20 car quite some time ago.

They can now focus on clawing back all the downforce cut from the ‘21 cars.

Makes me wonder why RB are still devoting so many resources to this year. With reduced floor surface area, no more floor slots, reduced diffuser slat height/length, and other critical changes next year, the ‘21 cars are going to have to be vastly different to recover efficient downforce.

https://youtu.be/0ltTDiSTagY
I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Phlumbert wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:24 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:35 pm
Merc wrapped up development on the ‘20 car quite some time ago.

They can now focus on clawing back all the downforce cut from the ‘21 cars.

Makes me wonder why RB are still devoting so many resources to this year. With reduced floor surface area, no more floor slots, reduced diffuser slat height/length, and other critical changes next year, the ‘21 cars are going to have to be vastly different to recover efficient downforce.

https://youtu.be/0ltTDiSTagY
I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.
Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.

tangodjango
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Re: Mercedes W11

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zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:24 am
Phlumbert wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:24 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:35 pm
Merc wrapped up development on the ‘20 car quite some time ago.

They can now focus on clawing back all the downforce cut from the ‘21 cars.

Makes me wonder why RB are still devoting so many resources to this year. With reduced floor surface area, no more floor slots, reduced diffuser slat height/length, and other critical changes next year, the ‘21 cars are going to have to be vastly different to recover efficient downforce.

https://youtu.be/0ltTDiSTagY
I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.
Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.
Yep the Mercs probably lost out around 2-3 tenths on an optimum lap compared to Max's Q2 lap. If they were in the sweet spot I suppose who-ever put the best Merc lap in would have been around 3-4 tenths up on Max. But then again we're playing a guessing game regarding sweet spot and race vs quali setup. Very inline with Spa and Mugello factoring in track characteristice.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

LM10
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Re: Mercedes W11

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tangodjango wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:18 am
zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:24 am
Phlumbert wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:24 am


I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.
Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.
Yep the Mercs probably lost out around 2-3 tenths on an optimum lap compared to Max's Q2 lap. If they were in the sweet spot I suppose who-ever put the best Merc lap in would have been around 3-4 tenths up on Max. But then again we're playing a guessing game regarding sweet spot and race vs quali setup. Very inline with Spa and Mugello factoring in track characteristice.
Coldest race so far, DAS was used more than ever by Mercedes as it was built for exactly these situations. On top of that, Mercedes generates most downforce. I doubt that they weren’t in sweet spot.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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tangodjango wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:18 am
zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:24 am
Phlumbert wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:24 am


I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.
Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.
Yep the Mercs probably lost out around 2-3 tenths on an optimum lap compared to Max's Q2 lap. If they were in the sweet spot I suppose who-ever put the best Merc lap in would have been around 3-4 tenths up on Max. But then again we're playing a guessing game regarding sweet spot and race vs quali setup. Very inline with Spa and Mugello factoring in track characteristice.
I'd agree with that estimate.

LM10 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 pm
Coldest race so far, DAS was used more than ever by Mercedes as it was built for exactly these situations. On top of that, Mercedes generates most downforce. I doubt that they weren’t in sweet spot.
I don't think they were. That becomes pretty apparent when you look at Mercedes' race pace and what the gap to Verstappen would've been without the final SC.

But if you don't trust us, or the pace, Mark Hughes even commented on this in his Eifel GP race review at The Race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... andomness/

And as he said, to what extent the narrowing of the gap in quali in Germany was attributed to the tires, and what extent was attributed to RB's upgrade, will become clearer in the next few races.

tangodjango
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Re: Mercedes W11

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zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:00 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:18 am
zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:24 am


Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.
Yep the Mercs probably lost out around 2-3 tenths on an optimum lap compared to Max's Q2 lap. If they were in the sweet spot I suppose who-ever put the best Merc lap in would have been around 3-4 tenths up on Max. But then again we're playing a guessing game regarding sweet spot and race vs quali setup. Very inline with Spa and Mugello factoring in track characteristice.
I'd agree with that estimate.

LM10 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 pm
Coldest race so far, DAS was used more than ever by Mercedes as it was built for exactly these situations. On top of that, Mercedes generates most downforce. I doubt that they weren’t in sweet spot.
I don't think they were. That becomes pretty apparent when you look at Mercedes' race pace and what the gap to Verstappen would've been without the final SC.

But if you don't trust us, or the pace, Mark Hughes even commented on this in his Eifel GP race review at The Race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... andomness/

And as he said, to what extent the narrowing of the gap in quali in Germany was attributed to the tires, and what extent was attributed to RB's upgrade, will become clearer in the next few races.
Red Bull will definitely claw back further time. That said I'm not sure if they will be outright faster in either quali or race pace at any point like in Mexico/Brazil 2018/2019 (Though that was partially altitude dependent).
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes W11

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zibby43 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:24 am
Phlumbert wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:24 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:35 pm
Merc wrapped up development on the ‘20 car quite some time ago.

They can now focus on clawing back all the downforce cut from the ‘21 cars.

Makes me wonder why RB are still devoting so many resources to this year. With reduced floor surface area, no more floor slots, reduced diffuser slat height/length, and other critical changes next year, the ‘21 cars are going to have to be vastly different to recover efficient downforce.

https://youtu.be/0ltTDiSTagY
I was under the impression the re-working of the rear lower wishbones on the W11 was in preparation for the floor change next year? If so, they're on good track already.

Pretty good video. Max seems to be closer in qualifying but it seems like they still have some way to go in race trim. If it weren't for the safety car in the last race, Lewis would have probably finished like 20s ahead of Max. Then again, I guess we can't look in to performances during the last race too much as the track temps were crazy low.
Think you would be correct about that. Should be interesting to see how they continue to develop that area.

I'm curious if Merc struggled getting their tires into the window over the course of a single lap in Germany. I think RB definitely made progress, but I don't think the W11 was all the way hooked up in terms of quali pace. The 'ring is also not very power-sensitive.
Define power sensitive? I would imagine that although the straights aren't preposterously long, because they involve going uphill and scrubbing speed in flat out corners, that power does have an influence. Say two cars get on the power at the same time exiting a corner, but one car has higher average speed through the corner, not because the driver took a better line, or because the car has more aero, but because engine power allows one driver to scrub less speed in the corner. End result one driver can carry an extra 3 or 4 kmh through a corner consistently.
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