DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Mattchu
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Clutching at straws! But it`s moveable aero...That`s for sprung weight if I`m not mistaken and the wheel doesn`t come under this.
Mercedes have made what has become a pretty sterile F1 into something that every sports paper is talking about, even if they don`t use it, the good press its given F1 is worth its weight in gold...

What if another team shows up with it in a few days :?

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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erikejw wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:52 pm

"10.4.5 Power steering is allowed but such system may not carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to steer the car and must allow the steering to continue to function when all hydraulic and/or electric power is shut down."

Since DAS is part of the steering Mercedes needs to show that their drivers can do the toe in and toe out as efficient without the help of power steering, otherwise it should be deemed a safety hazard and forbidden.

Imagine a car with power steering and a malfunction( Senna comes to mind), then uncapable to operate.

DAS might not even use use power steering, hydraulics. Then all of the above is forfeit.
There have been some pretty wacky ways described for the possible operation of DAS, but if we 'Ockham's razor' this, it wouldn't be that difficult to just manually move the rack fore and aft

Anony Mous Engineerd
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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This is clearly illegal, and surprised in 47 posts, no one quoted this:

10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted
.

If that toe has 2 different specs due to the moving steering wheel, than fails the above reg.
It was legal for testing, not a race.

DAS is a red hearing to hide all the new aero in the car, and the team at MB headquarters is laughing their collective asses off at the attention and squabbling this has caused.

Mark my words...

AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Anony Mous Engineerd wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:35 am
This is clearly illegal, and surprised in 47 posts, no one quoted this:

10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted
.
...
It's not re-aligning 'more than two wheels'

Anony Mous Engineerd
Anony Mous Engineerd
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Well,,, when you put that in bold, it's kinda obvious... The Parc Ferme thing still has legs, and I am sticking with my idea that the DAS is all for SHOW... they are hiding some other Aero trick...

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godlameroso
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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If the DAS moves the steering rack, how easy would it be to use it as an F duct? In one position it covers a duct and uncovers it in another position.
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AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Anony Mous Engineerd wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:43 am
Well,,, when you put that in bold, it's kinda obvious... The Parc Ferme thing still has legs, and I am sticking with my idea that the DAS is all for SHOW... they are hiding some other Aero trick...
Why Parc Ferme? They change tons of stuff all the time while in 'Parc Ferme'.

AJI
AJI
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:01 am
If the DAS moves the steering rack, how easy would it be to use it as an F duct? In one position it covers a duct and uncovers it in another position.
Surely that would be considered moveable aero? Not to say they're not doing it, but that car would have scrutineers all over it and I dare say every other team has lodged a protest by now.

saviour stivala
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm
What I don't understand is any moveable aero is forbidden.

With toe-in your wheels have a larger frontal aero surface then with toe neutral. So by moving the wheels to toe-neutral you are having less of an aero impact and as such it is moveable aero. They way how you achieve it does not really matter anymore. The fact that you have a way of controlling it to your suit is enough to call this moveable.

Then, to make matters worse, there is the way you control it, yes you use the steering wheel, but not to steer, just to actively control the aero frontal impact of the front wheels. When pulling the steer toward you and when pushing it away you are not steering at all, you are moving in a straight line. The only purpose is to change toe-in and with that frontal aero surface is reduced.
Contrary to what have been said the steering wheel is not pushed or pulled by the driver, the steering wheel movement (up or down/towards or away from the driver) is actuated by the driver via a push button.

Dr. Acula
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:02 pm
Contrary to what have been said the steering wheel is not pushed or pulled by the driver, the steering wheel movement (up or down/towards or away from the driver) is actuated by the driver via a push button.
I highly doubt that.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.
Also, if the driver can activate the adjustment with a button, then why they have designed it that the steering wheel is moving at all? What is far more likely is that the driver has to press a button to simply unlock the mechanism.

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SiLo
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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It's hydraulic but the power is supplied by the driver, and multiplied by the system. Just like a braking system.
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Wynters
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Are people seriously arguing that it's 'movable aero'?

Of course it's moveable aero. But so is every other steering wheel. And the brake/accelerator pedals. And the driver's helmet. And their hands.That's why the rules don't specifically rule out the steering wheel being used to make aero adjustments.

Perhaps Williams should just weld George Russel into the car (and his pedals and steering wheel) and then lodge a protest against every other team the second after the lights go green and the rest of the field pulls away. It's probably the only way they are going to get points this season. I'm sure all the posters complaining about Merc's 'movable aero' will just as vocally support RBR at al and Ferrari et al being disqualified?

vogonvader
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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hollus wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:20 pm
In any case, Mercedes can "legalize" its car in extremely short notice, just by immobilizing the system.
Yeah but without DAS's gains the possible compromises they've made in structure or the additional weight of the system might even lose them some time, wouldn't it?

Brian.G
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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This thread reminded me of a prototype system I developed for a company a good while ago - and one which by its design I always assumed was illegal, or not mean to be ever found.

The design in theory was pretty simple - the steering arms and rack were behind the front wheels. Under braking, the steering rods grew in length by means of a second brake master cylinder - thus keeping toe in check even with wishbone bushing compliance taken into account due to brake forces.

Brian,
Last edited by Brian.G on Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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rohan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:41 pm
Am surprised that the FIA are leaning towards DAS being legal - in my view (as someone who has been interviewed as a technical expert in Autosport) it's clearly against the rules, but of course only the FIA's view matters.
it's supposed to be against the rules, but they accidentally wrote it so it only applies if the steering wheel is fixed #-o

the steering can't remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car, so the aero rule doesn't apply either

this is why they had to write a new rule for next year. FIA are actually doing it right :shock: