DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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wesley123
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Anony Mous Engineerd wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:35 am
If that toe has 2 different specs due to the moving steering wheel, than fails the above reg.
It was legal for testing, not a race.
I think I get the argument you are using here; The adjusted wheels aren't the same as they are default, and could be interpreted as another set of wheels.

The issue with this, as with most other arguments against the legality is that steering does essentially the same thing.
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RelosJQ
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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"1.5 Wheel :
Flange and rim.

1.6 Complete wheel :
Wheel and inflated tyre. The complete wheel is considered part of the suspension system.

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion."

DAS may be illegal in accordance with the above rules.

EDIT:

Moreso 10.1.2 "Any suspension system fitted to the front wheels must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the front wheels."

Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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RelosJQ wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:11 am
"1.5 Wheel :
Flange and rim.

1.6 Complete wheel :
Wheel and inflated tyre. The complete wheel is considered part of the suspension system.

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion."

DAS may be illegal in accordance with the above rules.
Steering is also illegal based on that simple reading of the rules.
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Holm86
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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I don't really understand why people keep questioning its legality??

FIA has deemed it legal, so the regulations as they are right now, does not prohibit DAS.

The regulations are very clear when it comes to suspension, so looking at the suspension paragraphs in the regulations, it would be illegal if it was considered part of the suspension set up.

This must mean that FIA clearly sees it as part of the steering, where the regulations are not that clear.
And this also means that it is NOT hindered by parc ferme.

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214270
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-ma ... -mercedes/

An interesting wrinkle; Marko appears to accept DAS is a steering control system.
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hollus
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Technically, the FIA has not said it is legal. They seem to have "Ok'd" it in some form, and probably have not banned it, but a question of legality should first be decided in Merbourne. The exact implementation of the system (which can still change) might end up having a bearing in that.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/26/why ... ing-wheel/
Which is all well and good, but none of the above makes DAS definitively legal: The governing body can offer opinions of legality; but the stewards hand down verdicts, and they are, of course, only called upon to rule during competitions, which testing sessions are not.
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jjn9128
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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hollus wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:23 pm
Technically, the FIA has not said it is legal. They seem to have "Ok'd" it in some form, and probably have not banned it, but a question of legality should first be decided in Merbourne. The exact implementation of the system (which can still change) might end up having a bearing in that.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/26/why ... ing-wheel/
Which is all well and good, but none of the above makes DAS definitively legal: The governing body can offer opinions of legality; but the stewards hand down verdicts, and they are, of course, only called upon to rule during competitions, which testing sessions are not.
I said that 5 pages ago :lol:

Watching some of the onboards from testing it seems Mercedes are only sometimes using the system. Are they testing without just in case the system is declared illegal or is it temperamental? OR even is it just for use with certain of Pirelli's compounds most prone to overheating?
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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:24 am
Watching some of the onboards from testing it seems Mercedes are only sometimes using the system. Are they testing without just in case the system is declared illegal or is it temperamental? OR even is it just for use with certain of Pirelli's compounds most prone to overheating?
yes nice question! my guess is they have the data they needed, so now if they carry on they're only helping the others do gps analysis and discover exactly how effective it is

I think obviously it's blister control and a tiny little bit of top speed, and then the non-obvious could be aero, like arranging the outer bargeboard fins to do a bit of a stall and reduce drag when the wheels are 100% straight? What do you think? Of course they go straight during cornering, so perhaps that's my imagination getting overexcited

saviour stivala
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:51 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:02 pm
Contrary to what have been said the steering wheel is not pushed or pulled by the driver, the steering wheel movement (up or down/towards or away from the driver) is actuated by the driver via a push button.
I highly doubt that.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.
Also, if the driver can activate the adjustment with a button, then why they have designed it that the steering wheel is moving at all? What is far more likely is that the driver has to press a button to simply unlock the mechanism.
The driver does not physically pull and push on the steering wheel. the steering wheel sliding up and down the column is triggered by a button.

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hollus
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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That's an open theory. Many people believe that the "button push" is no more than a marker in the telemetry. Time will tell. This is testing, one might run all sorts of temporary solutions.
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LM10
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:46 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:51 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:02 pm
Contrary to what have been said the steering wheel is not pushed or pulled by the driver, the steering wheel movement (up or down/towards or away from the driver) is actuated by the driver via a push button.
I highly doubt that.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.
Also, if the driver can activate the adjustment with a button, then why they have designed it that the steering wheel is moving at all? What is far more likely is that the driver has to press a button to simply unlock the mechanism.
The driver does not physically pull and push on the steering wheel. the steering wheel sliding up and down the column is triggered by a button.
This would be illegal surely. I think the button needs to be pushed to unlock the wheel and then the driver pulls himself. The more popular theory has been that the button is only there to activate the marker. We will see when real racing is under way. Then they won't need the marker anymore.

saviour stivala
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:46 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:51 pm

I highly doubt that.



Also, if the driver can activate the adjustment with a button, then why they have designed it that the steering wheel is moving at all? What is far more likely is that the driver has to press a button to simply unlock the mechanism.
The driver does not physically pull and push on the steering wheel. the steering wheel sliding up and down the column is triggered by a button.
This would be illegal surely. I think the button needs to be pushed to unlock the wheel and then the driver pulls himself. The more popular theory has been that the button is only there to activate the marker. We will see when real racing is under way. Then they won't need the marker anymore.
The information I have says the driver does not physically push or pull the steering wheel for it to slide up and down the steering column. Re the legality or not. Regardless of the FIA/Mercedes goings on/having been said about the legality of it or not. It is only when the car is passed legal to race after the first park ferme will we know what is legal or not.

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jjn9128
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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I think for the "it's just steering honest" argument the driver has to physically be manipulating the steering wheel/slide. From what I saw on the onboard there looks to be some locking mechanism the driver releases on the back - certainly for the slide out! For Hamilton it looks like he releases it with the right hand, possibly something behind the grip?!
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gibells
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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A thought...or at least playing devil's advocate:

1. If you create a means for active aero adjustment and have it on your car, but don't use it, are you in violation? [Yes]

2. Could it therefore lead us to this conclusion?:
During qualifying(i.e. parc ferme), if you have the means to adjust your toe-in, even though you might not do it, would you similarly be in violation?

Answers on a postcard

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jjn9128
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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That's like Benetton having all the code for their launch/traction control in the ECU but never using it.
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