Red Bull RB16B

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Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:35
Juzh wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:17
NathanOlder wrote:
01 Sep 2021, 13:50


But if the rear downforce is there without huge amounts of drag, then you would want to keep it for sure. The rear is the weak end so you balance it out with more front end grip. Downforce is king. They would take front wing out to balance a car, but surely not rear wing ? You balance that with a better front end. Downforce at the front is much easier to come by than the rear. Especially after the reg changes we just had.
That's what they did in hungary after FP2 when the car just wouldn't turn. Front was too weak compared to rear and they had to reduce rear wing angle because front was already maxed out.
Interesting, was the front wing not performing in high speed or low speed corners ? I'm guessing high speed.
The car is obviously working very well at the rear where the brake ducts and diffuser performance is probably best in the field. In fact, so good that they can't get the front to match it. If you look at the front wing, they've made the flaps larger to increase surface area to try to gain front end downforce.
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NathanOlder
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Just_a_fan wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:04
NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:35
Juzh wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:17

That's what they did in hungary after FP2 when the car just wouldn't turn. Front was too weak compared to rear and they had to reduce rear wing angle because front was already maxed out.
Interesting, was the front wing not performing in high speed or low speed corners ? I'm guessing high speed.
The car is obviously working very well at the rear where the brake ducts and diffuser performance is probably best in the field. In fact, so good that they can't get the front to match it. If you look at the front wing, they've made the flaps larger to increase surface area to try to gain front end downforce.
Did they update the rear at Silverstone ? that was when Max started to complain about the front I believe. If there weren't any updates, how did RedBull get round this problem previously any ideas?
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dxpetrov
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Joined: 24 May 2012, 15:39

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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The issue is related to drop of track temperatures in Silverstone and abnormal ones in Hungary.
Different cars with different sweet spots.

HungarianRacer
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Joined: 25 Jun 2019, 12:26

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Looks like they'll still be using the spoon rear wing as the starting point (via @AlbertFabrega):

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Just_a_fan wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:04

The car is obviously working very well at the rear where the brake ducts and diffuser performance is probably best in the field. In fact, so good that they can't get the front to match it. If you look at the front wing, they've made the flaps larger to increase surface area to try to gain front end downforce.
If the center of pressure is too much rearwards, that still could be a problem for them. Just compare Lewis' Hungarian pole lap with Max's best (videos still up on Juzh's channel I believe), look how much minimum speed the Dutch has to sacrifice in T5 and in the last bend (probably the two most front-limited medium speed turns of the track) because of his car's unwillingness to rotate in comparison to the Merc.

Red Bull has been rocking the slim nose + cape since last season, but one conceptual difference between their car and Mercedes' that still isn't talked about a lot is their front suspension geometry. Notice how the former car's wishbones are already connected to the chassis pretty much as high as possible, but - especially the upper wishbones - are angled down significantly more to meet the uprights at lower points within the wheels...

... As I understand it, the floor of a present-day F1 car has two "focal points" or zones of downforce generation, one at the start of the diffuser throat (pushes the CoP rearwards) and a less powerful - although still very significant - one at the front leading edge (pushes the CoP forwards)... I wonder if Mercedes' front suspension (especially the almost horizontal upper wishbones) makes a better contribution to the downwash towards the leading edge of the floor, helping them to achieve a "healthier" innate CoP location, especially now with the less flexible rear wings...

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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One extra flow directioner i think.
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They also removed the aluminum(?) finishes at various points of the floor, now full carbon fiber.

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Bandit1216
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Joined: 05 Oct 2018, 16:55
Location: Netherlands

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Jolle wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:05
marcel171281 wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 11:55
Bandit1216 wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 09:53


I always had a knot in my head with that one. Fooling myself that exponential to a slightly lesser power is the same as reducing. If the squat results in the power to be 1,95 instead of 2, it's a gain. And we didn't even consider non linear spring rates yet :D "grok in fullness" - had to google that one.
And to make it even more complex, the spring rate is also different when only one side is compressed (cornering) compared to both sides being compressed at the same time (squatting in straight lines under high DF).
That’s why the linkage between the suspension left and right is so important. To have soft suspension for corner exit grip and squating down the straight vs stiff to prevent rol when cornering.
I bet that’s the root of most balance issue last years. Soft springs with strong anti roll on high rake. And then to predict what the car will do in bends like copse
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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Stu
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Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:04
NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 12:35


Interesting, was the front wing not performing in high speed or low speed corners ? I'm guessing high speed.
The car is obviously working very well at the rear where the brake ducts and diffuser performance is probably best in the field. In fact, so good that they can't get the front to match it. If you look at the front wing, they've made the flaps larger to increase surface area to try to gain front end downforce.
Did they update the rear at Silverstone ? that was when Max started to complain about the front I believe. If there weren't any updates, how did RedBull get round this problem previously any ideas?
Silverstone was where the new construction rear tyres were introduced…
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NathanOlder
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Stu wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 07:43
NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:04

The car is obviously working very well at the rear where the brake ducts and diffuser performance is probably best in the field. In fact, so good that they can't get the front to match it. If you look at the front wing, they've made the flaps larger to increase surface area to try to gain front end downforce.
Did they update the rear at Silverstone ? that was when Max started to complain about the front I believe. If there weren't any updates, how did RedBull get round this problem previously any ideas?
Silverstone was where the new construction rear tyres were introduced…
But surely that hasn't given the RedBull too much rear grip and made the car understeery ?
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marcel171281
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Joined: 22 Feb 2020, 12:08

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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NathanOlder wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 09:11
Stu wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 07:43
NathanOlder wrote:
02 Sep 2021, 13:10


Did they update the rear at Silverstone ? that was when Max started to complain about the front I believe. If there weren't any updates, how did RedBull get round this problem previously any ideas?
Silverstone was where the new construction rear tyres were introduced…
But surely that hasn't given the RedBull too much rear grip and made the car understeery ?
Well it allows for lower rear tyre pressures, while the fronts are just high as they were. Sounds to me like a recipe for understeer if your car was balanced good before. And you don't voluntarily set a higher pressure on the rear tyres, because of temperatures, wear, straight line grip etc. You go as low as allowed (they all do) and the fronts and rears are now maybe out of balance for RB.

Mercedes had an unstable rear, which has become more stable from silverstone onwards. Maybe to opposite effect to RB?

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NathanOlder
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Location: Kent

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Very good points.
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Morteza
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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