Red Bull RB16B

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Wouter
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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lio007 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:30 am
Were there any updates on the car in Austin?
A Red Bull employee on Autosport forum posted that the updates work well. But I dont know what kind of updates he was referring to. At least I havent seen anything in the media.
@Sparky68 (RBR employee) Posted 23 October 2021 - 23:33
Upgrades working well

@Ivanhoe (RC Forum Host/Moderator), on 23 Oct 2021 - 23:34, said:
You had upgrades on the car?

@Sparky68 Posted 23 October 2021 - 23:55
:wink:

@Sparky68 Posted 24 October 2021 - 00:42
Just to quell the Merc fan boys, we are very advanced on the new car. Just saying.

@Sparky68 Posted 25 October 2021 - 09:44
Thanks JeePee , mood here is pretty upbeat with the upcoming races. Cant help but think we would be close to leading both championships if it wasnt for being punted off tracks!
Last edited by Wouter on Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:28 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:30 am
Were there any updates on the car in Austin?
A Red Bull employee on Autosport forum posted that the updates work well. But I dont know what kind of updates he was referring to. At least I havent seen anything in the media.
Thanks, strange so little is known. In Monza Horner said the RB16b was nearing the end of its life cycle so surely we must have seen something by now. Last year the final update came in Turkey (mid nov). So I hope the good form in Austin came from an update (which also worked better for Sergio). I think the performance gain was too great to just be setup optimization.
No CAP last year and RedBull had a ton of $$$. Also the aero rules, aside from the floor, were consistant. So whatever they were developing for 2021, if it fit, could have been carried backwards to 2020. Nothing but the PU is being carried over for 2022. For 2022, they have a bigger job in that they're redesigning everything from the brakes/suspension up. They're not able to outspend two thirds of teams 2 to 1 or more. There is a huge risk that whatever 2022 development time that is borrowed for 2021 could end up being very painful for the 2022 car. In short, don't use 2020's development cutoff as an example of what to expect for 2021.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:38 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:28 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am


A Red Bull employee on Autosport forum posted that the updates work well. But I dont know what kind of updates he was referring to. At least I havent seen anything in the media.
Thanks, strange so little is known. In Monza Horner said the RB16b was nearing the end of its life cycle so surely we must have seen something by now. Last year the final update came in Turkey (mid nov). So I hope the good form in Austin came from an update (which also worked better for Sergio). I think the performance gain was too great to just be setup optimization.
Helmut Marko in Der Kronen Zeitung Friday 22.10.2021 09:02:

Zuletzt in Istanbul hatte Red Bulls Motorsportchef Helmut Marko erklärt, dass man sich bezüglich des Speeds von Lewis Hamilton und Mercedes Sorgen machen müsse („Uns fehlen 15 km/h“): "Wir hatten seither viele intensive Meetings und Analysen. In der Theorie haben wir ein Gegenmittel gefunden, aber schauen wir einmal, wie das in der Praxis aussieht.
Klar dürfte sein, dass das österreichisch-britische Team in Milton Keynes sein ohnehin schon bemerkenswert gutes Chassis weiter optimieren konnte.

Most recently in Istanbul, Red Bull's Head of Motorsport Helmut Marko said that one had to worry about the speed of Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes (“We are missing 15 km / h”): “We have had many intensive meetings and analyzes since then.
We found an antidote in theory, but let's see how it looks in practice."
It should be clear that the Austro-British team in Milton Keynes was able to further optimize its already remarkably good chassis.

I don't think he was speaking about the setup.
Thanks! Usually Marko is pretty open about what they are bringing. Maybe its a mix of less draggy downforce and engine up

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:24 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:28 pm
lio007 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:54 am


A Red Bull employee on Autosport forum posted that the updates work well. But I dont know what kind of updates he was referring to. At least I havent seen anything in the media.
Thanks, strange so little is known. In Monza Horner said the RB16b was nearing the end of its life cycle so surely we must have seen something by now. Last year the final update came in Turkey (mid nov). So I hope the good form in Austin came from an update (which also worked better for Sergio). I think the performance gain was too great to just be setup optimization.
No CAP last year and RedBull had a ton of $$$. Also the aero rules, aside from the floor, were consistant. So whatever they were developing for 2021, if it fit, could have been carried backwards to 2020. Nothing but the PU is being carried over for 2022. For 2022, they have a bigger job in that they're redesigning everything from the brakes/suspension up. They're not able to outspend two thirds of teams 2 to 1 or more. There is a huge risk that whatever 2022 development time that is borrowed for 2021 could end up being very painful for the 2022 car. In short, don't use 2020's development cutoff as an example of what to expect for 2021.
Don't worry, I wasn't. Just trying to point out that somewhere between Monza and mid nov the final update could have been expected

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:06 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:38 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:28 pm


Thanks, strange so little is known. In Monza Horner said the RB16b was nearing the end of its life cycle so surely we must have seen something by now. Last year the final update came in Turkey (mid nov). So I hope the good form in Austin came from an update (which also worked better for Sergio). I think the performance gain was too great to just be setup optimization.
Helmut Marko in Der Kronen Zeitung Friday 22.10.2021 09:02:

Zuletzt in Istanbul hatte Red Bulls Motorsportchef Helmut Marko erklärt, dass man sich bezüglich des Speeds von Lewis Hamilton und Mercedes Sorgen machen müsse („Uns fehlen 15 km/h“): "Wir hatten seither viele intensive Meetings und Analysen. In der Theorie haben wir ein Gegenmittel gefunden, aber schauen wir einmal, wie das in der Praxis aussieht.
Klar dürfte sein, dass das österreichisch-britische Team in Milton Keynes sein ohnehin schon bemerkenswert gutes Chassis weiter optimieren konnte.

Most recently in Istanbul, Red Bull's Head of Motorsport Helmut Marko said that one had to worry about the speed of Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes (“We are missing 15 km / h”): “We have had many intensive meetings and analyzes since then.
We found an antidote in theory, but let's see how it looks in practice."
It should be clear that the Austro-British team in Milton Keynes was able to further optimize its already remarkably good chassis.

I don't think he was speaking about the setup.
Thanks! Usually Marko is pretty open about what they are bringing. Maybe its a mix of less draggy downforce and engine up
Some people have suggested that Merc went from a single stage suspension setup (low rake) to a 2 sage suspension setup in a high rake config and finally to a 3 stage Suspension setup (High rake Plus). Where at certain high speed they're able to stall the diffuser and drop drag further. If any of that is true, I would think it would require some kind of suspension change for RedBull to adopt it.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:56 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:06 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:38 pm


Helmut Marko in Der Kronen Zeitung Friday 22.10.2021 09:02:





Most recently in Istanbul, Red Bull's Head of Motorsport Helmut Marko said that one had to worry about the speed of Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes (“We are missing 15 km / h”): “We have had many intensive meetings and analyzes since then.
We found an antidote in theory, but let's see how it looks in practice."
It should be clear that the Austro-British team in Milton Keynes was able to further optimize its already remarkably good chassis.

I don't think he was speaking about the setup.
Thanks! Usually Marko is pretty open about what they are bringing. Maybe its a mix of less draggy downforce and engine up
Some people have suggested that Merc went from a single stage suspension setup (low rake) to a 2 sage suspension setup in a high rake config and finally to a 3 stage Suspension setup (High rake Plus). Where at certain high speed they're able to stall the diffuser and drop drag further. If any of that is true, I would think it would require some kind of suspension change for RedBull to adopt it.
Good info. Maybe something along those lines was tested at the filming day

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etusch
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Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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I still didn't convinced about it. if it is not controlled by an intelegent thing, it can cause unexpected aero loss by starting to do its job
somewhere you don't want it. And that aero balance is not sacrificable for 15 km/h at straight.
If controlled so how it can be leagal?

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:25 pm
I still didn't convinced about it. if it is not controlled by an intelegent thing, it can cause unexpected aero loss by starting to do its job
somewhere you don't want it. And that aero balance is not sacrificable for 15 km/h at straight.
If controlled so how it can be leagal?
Maybe the lowering only starts at a certain speed if there is no force on the torsion bar so the car is not lowering in a high speed corner.

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west52keep64
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Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:05 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:17 am
etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:25 pm
I still didn't convinced about it. if it is not controlled by an intelegent thing, it can cause unexpected aero loss by starting to do its job
somewhere you don't want it. And that aero balance is not sacrificable for 15 km/h at straight.
If controlled so how it can be leagal?
Maybe the lowering only starts at a certain speed if there is no force on the torsion bar so the car is not lowering in a high speed corner.
It only works in a straight line. It's exploiting the fact the central heave spring is under more load in a straight line than it is when the car is cornering. It's a completely passive system.

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dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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etusch wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:25 pm
I still didn't convinced about it. if it is not controlled by an intelegent thing, it can cause unexpected aero loss by starting to do its job
somewhere you don't want it. And that aero balance is not sacrificable for 15 km/h at straight.
If controlled so how it can be leagal?
It's simple, you determine the maximum compressive force the spring will experience in a corner. You then add a safety margin to that, and tune the spring accordingly.
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ispano6
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Location: my playseat

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Back on the topic of the RB16B, GPBlog's video (https://www.gpblog.com/en/videos/96785/ ... -prix.html 2:00 mark) reports that Max's chassis was new for the Austin GP after experiencing understeer in the chassis ran in Turkey that couldn't be sorted. Not sure if Sergio also got a new chassis or the upgrades as well, but Max's pace compared to Sergio(despite his condition and situation) did make it seem Max had a superior car. Perhaps Sergio will get the upgrade in Mexico if he hasn't already. In qualifying Sergio did seem very close to Max but across the race distance it didn't seem the same car. Marko also has said they have been using a smaller rear wing as the 'antidote' to the balance issues so it does seem that the car has been sorted out for Max to extract the most out of it.

Dee
Dee
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:44 pm
Back on the topic of the RB16B, GPBlog's video (https://www.gpblog.com/en/videos/96785/ ... -prix.html 2:00 mark) reports that Max's chassis was new for the Austin GP after experiencing understeer in the chassis ran in Turkey that couldn't be sorted. Not sure if Sergio also got a new chassis or the upgrades as well, but Max's pace compared to Sergio(despite his condition and situation) did make it seem Max had a superior car. Perhaps Sergio will get the upgrade in Mexico if he hasn't already. In qualifying Sergio did seem very close to Max but across the race distance it didn't seem the same car. Marko also has said they have been using a smaller rear wing as the 'antidote' to the balance issues so it does seem that the car has been sorted out for Max to extract the most out of it.
If anything, Sergio was the one that got the upgrade. He has never been 0.2 from Max this season. He was near or on Max's pace until 40 laps in when he fell off a clif due to exhaustion, feeling sick, lack of water. Max was complaining about balance until Q3 and said he never had such a wkd where he didn't "get" the car until qualifying.

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Red Bull RB16B

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:44 pm
Back on the topic of the RB16B, GPBlog's video (https://www.gpblog.com/en/videos/96785/ ... -prix.html 2:00 mark) reports that Max's chassis was new for the Austin GP after experiencing understeer in the chassis ran in Turkey that couldn't be sorted. Not sure if Sergio also got a new chassis or the upgrades as well, but Max's pace compared to Sergio(despite his condition and situation) did make it seem Max had a superior car. Perhaps Sergio will get the upgrade in Mexico if he hasn't already. In qualifying Sergio did seem very close to Max but across the race distance it didn't seem the same car. Marko also has said they have been using a smaller rear wing as the 'antidote' to the balance issues so it does seem that the car has been sorted out for Max to extract the most out of it.
I doubt they have more than 1 spare chassis. They certainly didn't build a new one from scratch, that would take sometime... There isn't likely any upgrade in it. Remember it's just the skeleton that everything bolts on to.

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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A new chassis is not an upgrade. The specs of the new chassis must be the same as the old.
The replacement was done because there may have been something wrong with the old one, not because the new one was better.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:40 am
A new chassis is not an upgrade. The specs of the new chassis must be the same as the old.
The replacement was done because there may have been something wrong with the old one, not because the new one was better.
Maybe they tested all chassis on flex and changed to the least flexing one(s)