Mercedes W12

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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Watching this picture, what can we say about W12`s rear wing and rake compared to RB16B`s?

Image
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e30ernest
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Re: Mercedes W12

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atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:13 pm
Watching this picture, what can we say about W12`s rear wing and rake compared to RB16B`s?

https://postimages.org/
Hard to tell, Lewis is braking really hard here, Max has probably already rolled off the brakes.

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes W12

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There are theories of what Lewis was doing close behind Max, bit if Max had not braked hard, he would not have bee in that place so Lewis would not have hit him as he would have been gone by the time he got there
We are talking about a couple of eye blinks here
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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W12

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:42 am
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:37 am
We've been spoiled by these rare hi-res photos of a damaged FW:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF8NRy3VQAI ... ame=medium
Ah man. Look at the score marks all over that….
:lol: =D>

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W12

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The location of the the in-board end of the pull-rod is very unusual. I have not seen that before. Could be where their token was spent.

The suspension guts are tucked into the middle of the gearbox. Quite unusual. These parts used to be located on top in the push-rod era, then on the sides when the pull-rod era began, and now commonly the bottom outer edges. But this one pierces through the upper-middle of the gearbox. :!:

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FWandE
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Re: Mercedes W12

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atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:13 pm
Watching this picture, what can we say about W12`s rear wing and rake compared to RB16B`s?

https://postimages.org/
I don't know about rear wing or rake but it's pretty obvious this was a calculated move by Lewis to try to give Max a rear wheel puncture. :wink: :lol: :twisted:

Marty_Y
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Re: Mercedes W12

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-c ... i/6857920/

How F1 teams decided over critical downforce choices in Saudi
By:
Giorgio Piola
Co-author:
Matthew Somerfield
Dec 7, 2021, 9:54 PM
The high-speed nature of the Jeddah Corniche Circuit made choosing the correct downforce levels absolutely critical. With three DRS zones on the quickest sections, those decisions proved even more pivotal than usual.
Mercedes opted to use its low-downforce rear wing with a single, centrally-mounted rear wing support pillar and the taller DRS pod connected to it. However, it’s worth noting that when we talk about high, medium and low downforce rear wings there are still some subtle variations within that selection too.

This can take several forms, but in the case of Mercedes it has two main specifications of low-downforce wing, one which was used at Silverstone and Spa (right) and one that was used in Baku and at Jeddah (left).

The main difference between the two arrangements is the relative size of the mainplane and top flap and the cutouts in the trailing edge of the top flap, which are used to help reduce drag. The yellow highlight in the illustration helps to distinguish the size difference in the central V cutout.



To help improve balance at the expense of a small drag penalty, teams also have Gurney flaps at their disposal that can be applied to the trailing edge of the upper flap.

Mercedes ran without the Gurney at Silverstone but added one owing to the impending wet weather conditions at Spa as it went into qualifying. As part of its cautionary exploration of the Jeddah circuit the team ran with a Gurney flap on the trailing edge of the top flap during FP1 and FP2 (red arrow) but, having accustomed themselves to the grip levels, both drivers continued without it during the rest of the event
.

Tvetovnato
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Re: Mercedes W12

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I wouldn’t be shocked if Merc actually takes another engine for Hamilton this weekend. A grid drop means no risk whatsoever of Max crashing him into T1, and then he has only a few laps to be up behind him again with a definite faster car.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:53 am
I wouldn’t be shocked if Merc actually takes another engine for Hamilton this weekend. A grid drop means no risk whatsoever of Max crashing him into T1, and then he has only a few laps to be up behind him again with a definite faster car.
But you'd still have to overtake him.

Better protocol would be qualify on the front row, ahead of him, and sail off into the distance (ideally with Bottas as a buffer).

This will only be the third race for this ICE.

(On a side note, I think this discussion may be a better fit for the team thread.)

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Marty_Y wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:06 pm
LOL, and they said to Lewis over the radio that they had looked and the front wing of the W12 was "fine" .


That would mean “we can see nothing in the data to suggest that the front wing is not structurally sound”
The car balance will have altered, but that is visible in the footage.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Stu wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:08 am
Marty_Y wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:06 pm
LOL, and they said to Lewis over the radio that they had looked and the front wing of the W12 was "fine" .


That would mean “we can see nothing in the data to suggest that the front wing is not structurally sound”
The car balance will have altered, but that is visible in the footage.
I would read it as they calculated "you will not lose the 30 seconds it will take to change it" :mrgreen:
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W12

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zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:37 am
We've been spoiled by these rare hi-res photos of a damaged FW:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF8NRy3VQAI ... ame=medium
I have a question - could the damaged front wing actually have improved the car's performance?

We know that wings create vortices at their tips and that these vortices reduce the lift force - that's why endplates are added: to reduce the vortex. But we also know that the front wing can be used to create a vortex that helps to redirect the front tyre wake and thus reduce the wake's adverse affect on the car - specifically the floor. The endplates incorporate vortex generators so far as the rules allow, after all.

By removing some of the endplate - especially in the shape seen there - perhaps a beneficial vortex formed that actually improved the overall performance of the car.

Just a finger in the air thought, really.
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Jolle
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:15 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:37 am
We've been spoiled by these rare hi-res photos of a damaged FW:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF8NRy3VQAI ... ame=medium
I have a question - could the damaged front wing actually have improved the car's performance?

We know that wings create vortices at their tips and that these vortices reduce the lift force - that's why endplates are added: to reduce the vortex. But we also know that the front wing can be used to create a vortex that helps to redirect the front tyre wake and thus reduce the wake's adverse affect on the car - specifically the floor. The endplates incorporate vortex generators so far as the rules allow, after all.

By removing some of the endplate - especially in the shape seen there - perhaps a beneficial vortex formed that actually improved the overall performance of the car.

Just a finger in the air thought, really.
Everything is possible of course, if the chance brings the aero object by chance outside the rules where it would work better. For instance, breaking the FW in such a way that it hangs lower or when the edge of the floor breaks and bends down to create a skirt.
For the end plate going, I think it’s, besides making the vortexes, sealing the “front diffuser” and that was more or less gone.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:15 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:37 am
We've been spoiled by these rare hi-res photos of a damaged FW:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF8NRy3VQAI ... ame=medium
I have a question - could the damaged front wing actually have improved the car's performance?

We know that wings create vortices at their tips and that these vortices reduce the lift force - that's why endplates are added: to reduce the vortex. But we also know that the front wing can be used to create a vortex that helps to redirect the front tyre wake and thus reduce the wake's adverse affect on the car - specifically the floor. The endplates incorporate vortex generators so far as the rules allow, after all.

By removing some of the endplate - especially in the shape seen there - perhaps a beneficial vortex formed that actually improved the overall performance of the car.

Just a finger in the air thought, really.
We'll know for sure if the Mercedes turn up with both cars having kicked in/sawn off FW endplates for FP1!

But it is an interesting thinking point. If some damage to a car in theory could somehow unlock performance which was prohibited by the current design regs. I wonder if this has ever been considered by the engineers of any team?

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Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:15 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:37 am
We've been spoiled by these rare hi-res photos of a damaged FW:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FF8NRy3VQAI ... ame=medium
I have a question - could the damaged front wing actually have improved the car's performance?

We know that wings create vortices at their tips and that these vortices reduce the lift force - that's why endplates are added: to reduce the vortex. But we also know that the front wing can be used to create a vortex that helps to redirect the front tyre wake and thus reduce the wake's adverse affect on the car - specifically the floor. The endplates incorporate vortex generators so far as the rules allow, after all.

By removing some of the endplate - especially in the shape seen there - perhaps a beneficial vortex formed that actually improved the overall performance of the car.

Just a finger in the air thought, really.
If it was only one side would it not be a detriment? Unless there are more tight lefts than rights
Mankind did not invent the laws of mathematics, we rediscovered them.