Sauber C23

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
SpeedTech
SpeedTech
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Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:31 pm
Location: Australia

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Actually if you have a closer look at the launch photos you could see the cut outs for the shark grill. Though they have it blocked for the launch.
From what I can recall Sauber tested the shark grill during the race weekends las year.

akbar21881
akbar21881
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Location: bristol,uk

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Sauber is out on track today.Look at it carefully.It now fitted with Ferrari F2003 bargeboard and turning vanes,different from the launched item.The front wing is also different.So I'm expecting to see a shark fin within a few days.

Good though.The will hopefully return to their 2001 form.Its more important to be successful than how it takes to be succesful!! All the best Sauber!!!! :D

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Steven
Owner
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:32 pm
Location: Belgium

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Every time I see a pic of that car, I find the nose just a little too fat. It looks so thick, seemingly bigger than last year's Ferrari

We are maybe a little too spoilt these days with special noses like McLaren and Williams ;)

drspeed
drspeed
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:28 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

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akbar21881 wrote:Sauber is out on track today.Look at it carefully.It now fitted with Ferrari F2003 bargeboard and turning vanes,different from the launched item.The front wing is also different.So I'm expecting to see a shark fin within a few days.
You should also take into account that the C23 is fitted with a 2004 spec Ferrari engine. Perhaps the engine is not as hot as the 052. And it's still winter as well.

As I predicted, Sauber announced that they will share test data between each other. This very much sounds like Sauber is developing the 053 engine for Ferrari and Ferrari in turn providing tire data from last year's F2003-GA.
-Challenging is more exciting than defending-

KJ
KJ
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With Ferrari being the only major team testing tires for Bridgestone on a regular basis, I think Ferrari was more than happy to supply Sauber with a car very similiar (if not the same) as their F2003-GA (using the F2004's engine/tranny).

That way, testing data collected by Sauber will be of more relevance to Ferrari this year. In essence, it would be like having a few extra cars out there testing. Furthermore, Sauber's ability to test on race weekends might help Ferrari greatly in tire selection etc.

Since I'm sure Ferrari is confident that Sauber won't be a threat to them, giving them F2003-GA's to race won't worry them too much. =)

- KJ

Irvingthien
Irvingthien
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:40 am

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The look alike design of the C23 with the F2003-GA makes me feel that Sauber is a disabled team that is unable to make their own car.The ditching of the twin keel is just a pure excuse to cover the fact that they borrowed the design from Ferrari.I think that Sauber made a deal with Ferrari that they could borrow Fisco from Sauber in exchange for thhe car information

uzael
uzael
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:24 pm
Location: Indianapolis

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I'm of the opinion that the way to go about formula one in the future will be a mixture of pricateer and manufacturer teams. I cand efinetly see a future in F1 where the manufacturers build new cars every year and sell last years car and intellectual proiperty to another teams. This would allow the field to grow again. Personally I'd like to see the field back up to 26 cars again, and allowing customer chassis is the next step.
"I'll bring us through this. As always. I'll carry you - kicking and screaming - and in the end you'll thank me. "

drspeed
drspeed
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:28 pm
Location: Milan, Italy

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Irvingthien wrote:The look alike design of the C23 with the F2003-GA makes me feel that Sauber is a disabled team that is unable to make their own car.The ditching of the twin keel is just a pure excuse to cover the fact that they borrowed the design from Ferrari.I think that Sauber made a deal with Ferrari that they could borrow Fisco from Sauber in exchange for thhe car information
That's so true. But during the past few seasons they havent really been able to develop their own car. The C21 and C22 were closely based on 2000's C20 which was one of the mose successful Saubers in recent years.
uzael wrote:I'm of the opinion that the way to go about formula one in the future will be a mixture of pricateer and manufacturer teams.
Thats the formula that worked up to the late 1990s. The thing that makes me not sure of this formula is that most cars nowadays are more tightly built. 40 years ago, most engines probably fit in any chassis since they didnt haven engine covers, but nowadays with more sophisticated integration between the entire package of the car, I cant even imagine two cars sharing simple things like tires or even steering wheels. Plus, teams can just hire spy shooters.
-Challenging is more exciting than defending-

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joseff
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:53 am

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Interestingly, 2004 would be the F2003's visit to Melbourne :)

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NickT
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:47 am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

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Sauber have had an outdated wind tunnel for some time and their new one is just coming online. While there is obviously a very close link to Ferrari I also believe that access to the new facilities will have helped them segnificantly on the aero side.

On the tyre front I think the dropping of their twin keel is definately a Ferrari/Bridgestone push. It will give them a very similar suspension setup so tyre usage and data between the two teams will be much closer.

Hmm... I wonder if Jordan sticking with Bridgestone and a single keel design is also influenced by the above?
NickT

rumpelstulskin
rumpelstulskin
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:56 pm

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interesting speculation about sauber's cooling:
http://thescuderia.net/Technical/Saubercooling.shtml

Enzo
Enzo
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:47 pm
Location: Greece

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rumpelstulskin wrote:interesting speculation about sauber's cooling:
http://thescuderia.net/Technical/Saubercooling.shtml
Really interesting article and it seems now that the author was right with his 2nd rhetorical question. IMHO, it seems that Ferrari will ue in Malaysia the "Sauber" radiators we saw in Melbourne and it seems logical to say that Ferrari has given these rads to Sauber in order to test them in a race. Just read what Ross Brawn has told today:

The sixth running of the Malaysian Grand Prix takes place this Sunday, 21 March at the Sepang Circuit, outside Kuala Lumpur.
The second round of the world championship will see the ten teams tackle a very different scenario to the first race in Melbourne. While the Australian GP was run in relatively cool conditions, Malaysia is traditionally the hottest and most humid race on the calendar, which presents drivers, engineers and engine specialists with some unique challenges.

'High temperatures, both ambient and on the track, are one of the main features of the Malaysian Grand Prix and in fact, this was one of the factors that influenced our decision to start this season with the new car, the F2004,' revealed Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro Technical Director, Ross Brawn. 'The new car has much better cooling than its predecessor. We realised, looking at last year as a whole, bearing in mind we had a particularly hot summer in Europe, that too often we were having to run our cars in an inefficient way because we had to have all our cooling ducts fully open in order to apply maximum cooling to the car. So, one of the clear objectives we set with the F2004 was to improve its cooling characteristics.'

In simple terms, the more holes there are in the bodywork and the bigger their size, the more the efficiency of the aerodynamics and the balance of the chassis are upset. In turn, this impacts on tyre performance, so the efficiency of the total package is badly affected. 'Therefore, the aim with the F2004 was to be able to obtain maximum cooling without compromising the aerodynamic package,' continued Brawn. 'You optimise your car at a certain ambient temperature and when you operate outside that ambient temperature you have to modify the shape of the bodywork by opening up the various cooling ducts and that always results in a drop in performance. This car is optimised to run at a higher ambient temperature. So when we need to give it extra cooling, it is not such a retrograde step. It means having bigger radiators and slightly more weight on board, but we decided this was the way to go and the F2004 has far more cooling capacity than the 2003 car.'

Apart from the advantages it brings in terms of the car’s efficiency, greater cooling also brings with it greater reliability for the car components. That is of particular significance this season with the introduction of the one engine per weekend rule. 'The engine is what suffers most in hot conditions as it is the component which generates the most heat that requires dissipating,” said Brawn. 'Of course the one engine rule means we will use maximum cooling for the free practice sessions on Friday and on Saturday morning, when overall performance is not so critical and then optimise it for the race to run slightly hotter.
The transmission also generates a fair bit of heat, but it is not so difficult to keep cool. Brakes are not too affected by the ambient temperature, given that they operate at temperatures of up to 700 degrees or even higher. The duty cycle [how often and how hard they are used] is what affects them and Sepang is not too difficult in this respect.'

Another effect of the hot temperatures is that the air is less dense, resulting in engines producing less power. However, this is not such as a disadvantage, because as Brawn pointed out: 'The important thing to bear in mind is that it’s the same for everyone.'

Guest
Guest
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Just out of curiosity, how does the Sauber compare performance wise to the F2003? I notice they've been picking up points last couple of races.