Mclaren MP4-19 in Barcelona

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Reca
Reca
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:22 pm
Location: Monza, Italy

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tom wrote:they are testing new components that cannot be seen on the outside. i.e. the double clutch gear box, which wasmade over a year ago and is still not reliable.
Tom, could you please add some details, also about your source, because last info I have about the double clutch gearbox (November) is that FIA decided that it wouldn’t be allowed to race, just like OPT/OCP.

Irvingthien
Irvingthien
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:40 am

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surprisingly all the McLaren drivers finished last on the Barcelona test on 3rd of February. anymore info about why there are still testing with 2003 spec rear-wing?

tom
tom
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it probably will be banned if ferrari dont win the first race, cause there sick minded like that. ferrari have already expressed their concern over this technolagy to the fia, i think.

tom
tom
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MP4-19 cars have succumbed to new mystical technical problem

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Slowness and unreliability a headache for McLaren

McLaren's new MP4-19 cars have succumbed to new mystical technical problems at the beginning of the Barcelona tests. The speed is missing and balance problems are already causing headaches. When the radical MP4-18 from last summer was a technical mishap center moving at 300km/h the new design was to be engineered in that way as to get the most sensitive extreme solutions into minimum. Right now nothing seems to work even on the new car. One of the main WDC candidates Kimi Räikkönen surprised his supporters with slowest time. 24-year old Finnish star could only complete 23 laps. The car spent the biggest part of the day in the pit carage being fixed and finally Kimi left for hotel already about two hours before runnig for the day ended.

Reliability lasted until Christmas

The worry on the British camp is considerable. It would a different thing altogether if atleast the speed was there even if reliability was suffering. Now they are both missing at the same time. For some reason the MP4-19 project which started before Christmas has wandered from problem to problem. Räikkönen who drove for first time on the modified Barcelona missed atleast by a couple of seconds a time for which he could have been satisfied with. McLaren doesn't offer explanations but seriousness of the looks on the faces of team personnel was telling.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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ill everyone just calm down and drop the conspiracy theories.

I know from insiders of a few mcLaren technical issues, none of which are serious. Never look at testing times, McLaren might have been testing things like mechanical parts with full fuel, or aero that demands a steady speed on the straight. The car has I recall topped the barcelona time sheets before now.

Also There cannot be a double clutch gearbox, the FIA have said its illegal, every other technical director says its illegal, McLaren have never said they've got one (to my knowledge). they do havea carbon gear case, which has been running since 2003, BAR have got theirs going why shouldn't McLaren?

I do not beleive MAC have any sort of active or mechanical suspension\camber systems, I've seen the car and its uprights they appear conventional

I do think McLaren have stretched their resources, Its complex car and problems last year with the 17D and 18 have left them playing catch up. I beleive they are just doing their own thing and will appear competitively in Melbourne.

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joseff
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:53 am

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Double-clutch illegal? But why? Scarbs, I think you're referring to the left-wheel/right-wheel clutch?

I think the odd/even gear-preselection double-clutch should be fine, because it has only one input (flywheel) and one output (at the diff case) at all times. Unless there's a regulation concerning the internal design of gearboxes.

rodlamas
rodlamas
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:03 pm

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Can anybody explains (in details if possible) how this --- double-clutch system operates and what would be the advantages of it
"I only race to finisht first, because the second is the first looser" Ayrton Senna

SpeedTech
SpeedTech
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Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:31 pm
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You if you want to know more on the twin clutch sytem there is an article in F1 Racing Feb '04 on the twin clutch system. There was an analysis on the Maclaren gearbox in the Aug '03 issue.

Here is extract of the article in the Feb '04 issue :
Mclaren's new MP4-19 is almost certain to race with a revolutionary twin clutch gearbox this season, F1 Racing can reveal.
The development of a twin clutch suitable for F1 use has long been a technical holy grail fo F1 engineers, as it enables gear to be changed without the momentary power loss inherent in a single clutch system. The tiny power 'dips' between changes amount to substantial cumulative lost of time over a race ddistance: about 30 seconds from lights to flag, on average.
Despite thte theoretical performance advantages of the system, no team has yet been able to produce one light,robust and small enough for F1 use. Nor has software been sufficiently sophisticated to control the complex process of disengaging one clutch precicly as the other engages.
Maclaren,however, are believed to have advanced to the point where they have sorted out the myraid problems
That was in pitpass section, though it dosen't state the author so I don't know how reliable its, then again it's coming from F1 Racing :wink:

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joseff
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:53 am

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Nor has software been sufficiently sophisticated to control the complex process of disengaging one clutch precicly as the other engages.
OK could someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought the double-clutch system is already in a *production* car, the 2003 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro.

Guest
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joseff wrote:
Nor has software been sufficiently sophisticated to control the complex process of disengaging one clutch precicly as the other engages.
OK could someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought the double-clutch system is already in a *production* car, the 2003 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro.
Indeed such a system is in use in the the 2003 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro series car!. Mclaren are not the only team supposed to use such a system. Williams are using such a system(changing gears without power loss) on their latest gearbox as well, which has been developed very closely with together BMW.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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A double clutch set up uses a seperate clutch for odd and even gears, with the theory that one gear is driving the wheels with the clutch engaged, while the next gear is selected with its clutch disengaged. When the driver wants to shift, the clutches switch and hey presto you have a super fast shift.
However if the clutch switch uses a lot of slip to phase one gear out as the other goes in, you could have two ratios driving simultaneously and hence constant drive between gears. According the FIA this constitutes more than one speed (gear or ratio, whatever) and hence more than seven for the gearbox so under the regs this is banned.

tom
tom
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the fia do suck. they think anything is illegal unless ferrari can do it. i dont see how a double clutch gearbox can be illegal, its not like turbo, its just a gearbox thats had improvements, if they did make it illegal, then what about engines etc. fia + ferrari - fu*kers

Guest
Guest
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On their last day of testing at the Barcelona circuit b4 the season begins, Mclaren struggled again pace & reliability-wise!!

Coulthard drive only in the morning & had to sit out the whole afternoon due to the mclaren technical gremlins. De La Rosa who was scheduled to run could not even do an installation lap it appears, due to the gremlins.

Well, after all is done & said I think mclaren would revert back to a more 'conventional' gearbox for the beginning of the season at least, if this is the source(s?) of their problem.

I gather the B version of the MP4-19 would be even smaller at the rear & the sides & would boast a new suspension package which should offer more mechanical grip. That would explain their need to go throught another crash test(rear & side) with the B version chassises.

Mclaren11
Mclaren11
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 9:54 pm
Location: Columbus, Indiana, USA

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Excuse me if I am wrong but I thought that testing was exactly that: Testing! Teams alway try new things and new parts in the ongoing quest for speed. Testing is not a race. the goal is not to be the fastest. The mere fact that McLaren aren't the fastest every day, or even every week means nothing. They Are a well funded team who have quality cars, and when Melbourne comes around (Only a month!!!) Mcaren will be just as fast (probably faster) as everyone else.[/u][/i][/b]

rodlamas
rodlamas
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:03 pm

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You are just right

Nobody knows what is really going on and lots of sites that are considered specialized ones say lots of bullshits.

A car can turn to be unrealiable because of a new part fitted to it, but cannot be fast in one month and then in the next month be a slow one.

Everybody knows that Mclaren is the team that do not reveal any of its testing details and only when we get to Melbourne we´ll see what is really true.

I´ll insist: 3 uears ago Arrows astonished everyone by breaking the Barcelona track record with an Asiatech powered car.

By the time F1 2001 got to Melbourne, Arrows were again at the back of the grid.

And I will say more: in 2002 the same Mclaren broke all the lap records possible. Do you expertises know why?

Because they have changed from Bridgestone into Michleins and had to check maximum performance of the tyres to see what directions to take in terms of suspension geometry and weight distribution.

And what --- team has broke all the records? BAR, who changed from Bridgestone into Michelins this year and has to go through the same checks.

Mclaren are running 1:15:9 full of fuel and are averaging lower than 1:18.0 for each stint. Do you really think this is bad in testing?

People you are just saying saying and saying.... Wait for Melbourne
"I only race to finisht first, because the second is the first looser" Ayrton Senna