Lotus T127 Cosworth

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
axle
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by axle » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:25 pm

deus1066 wrote:Yeah, I thought Force India front wing + Toyota nose + Williams sidepods when I first saw it...

Its strange, surely if you're going to copy something you should go for a McRedBrawn since they've been the 3 quickest cars.
If it was a COPY you'd be right...but it isn't a copy, it's the REAL FIF1 50% model at the WindTunnel where it's based.
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pipex
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by pipex » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:33 pm

:o :?

Now we know why MG isn't too worried about the design of this "new" car hahaha.
But maybe the aero is really FondTech IP?, however if FI paid for this work before, then it's property of them?, don't know i'm confused...
"We will have to wait and see".

axle
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by axle » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:42 pm

pipex wrote::o :?

Now we know why MG isn't too worried about the design of this "new" car hahaha.
But maybe the aero is really FondTech IP?, however if FI paid for this work before, then it's property of them?, don't know i'm confused...
I doubt that FondTech own any FI IP.
Last edited by axle on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MattF1
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by MattF1 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:03 am

timbo wrote:The funniest thing about that car is positive and asymmetric camber at the rear axle. Priceless!
Looks to me like the tyres were thrown on hastily (hence the front wheel cock-up) and the rear wheels aren't properly attached.

dumrick
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by dumrick » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:04 am

MattF1 wrote:
timbo wrote:The funniest thing about that car is positive and asymmetric camber at the rear axle. Priceless!
Looks to me like the tyres were thrown on hastily (hence the front wheel cock-up) and the rear wheels aren't properly attached.
Like somebody has hinted, I suppose it's just an effect of a wide-angle photo lens (I believe the shop seems small enough to need a WA lens to get the whole car in the picture) and a slightly misalignent of the photo shot (that catches more one of the sides of the building than the other), that justifies the apparent asymmetry and camber on the wheels.

As far of using the VJM02 scale-model, I'm pretty sure they must be using that for baseline assessment of performance. Gascoyne has too many times in the past iterated the aero until the last minute and I believe he will do it again.

shiggy
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by shiggy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:15 am

axle wrote:Well this little bit of work may rip this thread open...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the VJM02...


and...
...The VJM02...


The facts.
1) MG works/ed for both
2) Aerolab (FondTech) was used by Toyota, Renault, FI whilst MG was with those teams.
3) Floor shape is the same
4) Front of sidepods the virtually the same without the aero bits.
5) The bits that have been modified are in a different material...yes bits are different, they have done some work, but not all of it.

If I was FI I'd be p155ed....

Here's another clincher...
Note the front wing...


But I'm not gloating, this is worrying to me I want the Lotus name back in F1 but not through ripping FI's interlectual property. Yes every team copies but that's blatently FI's wind tunnel model.

Your thoughts?
"That is the Force India!" was my first thought. Extremely straight forward and simple design (by F1 standards). I had not realized just how close the 2 cars are, though. Hopefully the design will evolve into something worthy of the Lotus legacy.

On the shop: An F1 shop is not required to look like the Mclaren Tech Center to be effective. I would rather see a new team spend their funds on the car than fancy shop space.

Scotracer
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by Scotracer » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:30 am

All teams copy each other all the time. I'd bet this model was just to test out the other teams designs and see what makes them good.

It might not be moral...but neither is Max Mosley, and he runs the damn sport!
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Astro1
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by Astro1 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:54 am

Agreed, but surely you wouldn't put out a competitors ("for evaluation purposes")car out as your challenger in PR campaign.

The FIA asks do you have a car and you show them yes we do it's a FI? I think it's a bit cheesy.

axle
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by axle » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:05 am

That model would have been built by Force India and shipped to Aerolab. It not LotusF1's property. Which means they are claiming credit for something they haven't done.

There is copying and then there is literally passing off someone elses work as your own...
Last edited by axle on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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czt
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by czt » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:55 am

Scotracer wrote:All teams copy each other all the time. I'd bet this model was just to test out the other teams designs and see what makes them good.
There's copying and there is building identical replicas! Look and axles pics - they are the same parts!

Astro1
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by Astro1 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:10 am

Sad thing is, that all this is going right over the medias heads.

A complete copy [-X

axle
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by axle » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:12 am

I can't see it being a copy...I think it is FI's actual model that FI built.
Last edited by axle on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mystery Steve
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by Mystery Steve » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:16 am

OK, let's slow down here... There is a definite likeness between the two, but there are several distinct differences as well. The "inner endplates" on the FI wing come up to a point and then become parallel to the ground, while the Lotus version sweeps up. The Lotus nose looks higher (might be the angle of the shot). The supports under the air intake are distinctly different. The flow conditioners on the side pods of the FI are absent on the Lotus. The brake duct inlets look different as well. Aside from aero, the suspension is different, most notably the steering rack location.

Yes, there are some similarities, but there is nothing wrong with using another team's general aero design as a baseline if you think there is a reason to justify it. Before you accuse them of cheating, does anyone have any actual evidence that this is currently FI property? FI may have sold them old parts if they're going to use a new design next year and don't need the old models.

axle
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by axle » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:24 am

Mystery Steve wrote:OK, let's slow down here... There is a definite likeness between the two, but there are several distinct differences as well. The "inner endplates" on the FI wing come up to a point and then become parallel to the ground, while the Lotus version sweeps up. The Lotus nose looks higher (might be the angle of the shot). The supports under the air intake are distinctly different. The flow conditioners on the side pods of the FI are absent on the Lotus. The brake duct inlets look different as well. Aside from aero, the suspension is different, most notably the steering rack location.

Yes, there are some similarities, but there is nothing wrong with using another team's general aero design as a baseline if you think there is a reason to justify it. Before you accuse them of cheating, does anyone have any actual evidence that this is currently FI property? FI may have sold them old parts if they're going to use a new design next year and don't need the old models.
Like I said the some bits have been altered as they have "worked on" it but it's not Lotus' own work - new bits in a different material...flow conditioner attachment holes clearly visible. MG isn't stupid he knew they had to change bits but the core is FI's.

The funny part is, is that as this is THIS years model it's not going to be helpful other than for a baseline as it doesn't yet have the bigger fuel tank or the same power/geartrain...
Last edited by axle on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard
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Re: Lotus 2010 Car

Post by Richard » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:37 am

shiggy wrote:On the shop: An F1 shop is not required to look like the Mclaren Tech Center to be effective. I would rather see a new team spend their funds on the car than fancy shop space.
Agreed. Also, who says it is the Lotus shop? It might be in a packing room somewhere. If you look at the platform it is on, there are posts at each corner... looks to me like it is sitting on the base of a packing crate with the sides taken off.

Regarding the FI connection, it is cheeky, and hardly the way to win friends when you're new to the party ... unless FI have done it as a favour. Remember FOTA keep saying they will help the new teams?

Maybe FI and Lotus principals had a round of golf and the FI chap said "Have our winter 08 wind tunnel model". It could be the single deck diffuser version and we know that is likely to be way off the pace of the current DDD cars. Also a smaller tank and packaged for Merc power not Cosworth.

When you think about it, it is the sensible way to ensure the new teams have half a chance of clinging to the back of the field. But since when has sense been common in F1? :)


Edit to add ....

The Loutus website seems to be a single holding page with just this press release. Also you'd have thought their PR guys would have asked for the model to be wheeled to a more attractive location, or use a pro photographer

Now I come to think about it, you'd have though they would have got some pics of the principals signing the F1 papers, shaking hands with Max & Bernie, smiles all round, then a pic of Gasgoyne meeting the principals... possibly a meeting with some of the guys in Norfolk sat at computers in team branded t-shirts. None of that requires investment. Quite basic stuff actually, a school kid could do better. Do they actually have any PR people on board?

.... hmmm.... perhaps their "team" is very small ... just MG on his own .... how old are those pics ... from Nov 08?? ... a quick snap taken by MG on a factory visit last year ??

I'm decidedly unconvinced.