2013 Monaco Grand Prix

[Richard]

drivers comparison useless

Indeed. That line of conversation heads one way on this forum.

[Jonnycraig]

what exactly did Vettel do this season that resembled Alonso last year?

Win the races his car is capable of winning, pick up healthy points scores in the races he cant win.

[Overdriving]

Is it really any different to Alonso's opportunistic 2012? If he was given merit for capitalising on others cocking up - should Vettel not be held to the same standard? Sure the RB is probably not as bad - but in terms of capitalising on the opposition's brainfades, Vettel has probably driven to the same standard Alonso has last year.

It's considerably different if you notice the fact that Ferrari 2012 was incomparably less competitive than Red Bull 2013. Although it pretty much renders drivers comparison useless, what exactly did Vettel do this season that resembled Alonso last year?

Lost position to Ferrari in Melbourne, win on a plate in Bahrain, BS stolen win in Malaysia with a team-mate as the only competition, 4th in China - lost to LewHam in a Mercedes!, Barcelona average at best. Sample may be too small but I don't see examples of driver making a difference. If anything it's more similar to Vettel 2012, minus meltdown towards the end of the season, when one trick pony turned out to be 0 tricks pony when he lost certain-win-from-pole in USA.

Wow. That's a great way to skew things. Try to be objective. Vettel is doing a superb job in a car that is the third best on the race day and second/third best on Saturdays. If Red Bull had two Webbers, they would have 3rd/4th place in WCC standings instead of the first. Vettel is flattering that car so far--even more so than Alonso did in 2012.
I want Kimi to win the championship, but it's disgusting how some people keep not giving Vettel credit when it's well due. If anything, Alonso is the driver who is underperforming this season, crashing into things, making silly mistakes, getting out-qualified by Massa of all people, and managing not to lead the championship in the best car.
But it's useless to have a mature discussion when people don't want to see what's in front of them, so I rest my case.

[Nomore]

Is it really any different to Alonso's opportunistic 2012? If he was given merit for capitalising on others cocking up - should Vettel not be held to the same standard? Sure the RB is probably not as bad - but in terms of capitalising on the opposition's brainfades, Vettel has probably driven to the same standard Alonso has last year.

It's considerably different if you notice the fact that Ferrari 2012 was incomparably less competitive than Red Bull 2013. Although it pretty much renders drivers comparison useless, what exactly did Vettel do this season that resembled Alonso last year?

Lost position to Ferrari in Melbourne, win on a plate in Bahrain, BS stolen win in Malaysia with a team-mate as the only competition, 4th in China - lost to LewHam in a Mercedes!, Barcelona average at best. Sample may be too small but I don't see examples of driver making a difference. If anything it's more similar to Vettel 2012, minus meltdown towards the end of the season, when one trick pony turned out to be 0 tricks pony when he lost certain-win-from-pole in USA.

Nothing to do with Monaco but it's better than tyre/real racing drama ;o

Well i partially agree with you @iotar__. I dont think that Alonso in 2012 is comparable with Vettel now. F2012 (start season) had something like "Williams 2013".
But one think i must say for Vettel/Red Bull as a package they have been the best till now (5 races)...maybe not the fastest, but they have extract the maximum in every race, maybe apart China where i think they had the pace to be 3rd...but not a big lose. We must admit that (hard for a Ferrari fan like me), they haven't done any serious mistake till now...till now...
In other hand Ferrari has lost a minimum net of 20 points...minimum...We can not say that what happened in Bahrain was luck or unluck. Ferrari have hundreds of paid engineer to check and test all the components before the race, someone has made a mistake (maybe has been fired by now...). I never called mechanical failure luck or unluck.
In Malaysia Alonso was a little bit unlucky since a tiny small incident led to a 0 points, but it was 50/50...also from Alonso's side it was no need to push like that, in the first corner of the second race of the championship...i mean he was not losing or winning the championship there...ok in Brazil 2012...but now

Anyway Vettel/Red Bull have made much more mistakes in the 3 past years than Alonso/Ferrari, so there is no need to worry, they will make mistake...it's just a matter of time...and even if they have raised the game in this aspect also Ferrari this year have raised the game in the speed aspect... ...and as we have seen in the last 3 years, Speed is more important than Maximising the points...

[Chuckjr]

" Vettel is flattering that car so far--even more so than Alonso did in 2012."

You must be joking. The F2012 was a complete piece. The RB this year to f2012 last is a no comparison in terms of handling. Not even in the ballpark.

[Jonnycraig]

Wow. That's a great way to skew things. Try to be objective. Vettel is doing a superb job in a car that is the third best on the race day and second/third best on Saturdays.
I want Kimi to win the championship, but it's disgusting how some people keep not giving Vettel credit when it's well due. If anything, Alonso is the driver who is underperforming this season, crashing into things, making silly mistakes, getting out-qualified by Massa of all people, and managing not to lead the championship in the best car.
But it's useless to have a mature discussion when people don't want to see what's in front of them, so I rest my case.

=D> =D> =D>

[danielk]

Im confused why everyone is seeming to say that Red bull care this year is rubbish?? by red bulls own admission they have the fastest car in the field. to compare the F2012 at beginning of the season to RB9 is a complete joke. the cars are worlds apart. Red bull do have the fastest car, peoples comments that Sebastian is extracting more than the car can give is a joke. He is restricted by the "T word" the car is fast, faster than Ferrari. just Ferrari has a better handle on the tires. Admittedly sebastian is fearing better than Mark webber so one can understand why someone might say hes extracting more than the car can give. But quite clearly mark is a victim of the "T word" having allways been a heavier user than Seb.

On that note you noticed how mark often outperformes seb in Monoco? is this due to Mark being a driver that sticks to the limits of the track and vettell likes to steal extra track to gain speed? Vettell Cannot do this in Monoco which might explain why Mark is often Much closer and most recently much faster than Vettel at Monoco. Just a thought

[f1316]

Overtaking is possible in Monaco - I just don't think that Lewis in 2011 Monaco is a good example lol.

I think it's a pretty good example of a mercedes that's hard on its tyres being able to be passed, in the current formula, with the current layout, tools (DRS/KERS) etc.

Personally, I think it's pretty apt for what we're likely to see on Sunday...

[cherok1212]

Well done

[Pierce89]

Is it really any different to Alonso's opportunistic 2012? If he was given merit for capitalising on others cocking up - should Vettel not be held to the same standard?

Don't be daft. Alonso is a driving god amongst mere mortals. Vettel is at best a GP2 also ran. This has long since been established by F1 forum experts across the world.

I don't recall anyone saying Vettel is not a good driver, but it's quite clear he's never had to perform in a dog of a car, When he does that, he'll get just as much credit as Alonso. Vettel/RB9 seems to so far be a package roughly equal to Kimi/E21 and slightly behind Alonso/F138(Alonso has beat Vettel in every "incident free" race) , but Vettel would probably have won Bahrain anyway.(I guess)

[Jonnycraig]

I don't recall anyone saying Vettel is not a good driver, but it's quite clear he's never had to perform in a dog of a car, When he does that, he'll get just as much credit as Alonso.

Depends what you classify as a 'dog' really. the F138 had a best average qualifying position of 5th in 2012, the RB8 had a best average qualifying position of 4th in 2012.

Equally if you dont think Vettel has ever had to drive a 'dog', I dread to think what you thought of the STR2 with an average qualifying position of 15th, from which he got a 4th place, and was on for another 4th in Fuji.

Similarly the STR3, with an average qualifying of 10th, from which Vettel got a win, a 4th, three 5th's, two 6th's and two 8th's and promotion to the Red Bull team.

With all due respect, if neither the STR2 or STR3 are 'dogs', yet the F138 was in your eyes, then clearly there's nothing that will change your opinion of Vettel. Of course you have every right to your opinion of Vettel, but the facts quite clearly counter them.

[iotar__]

I disagree about qualifying order. Lotus should be higher, Grosjean's time was on softs, super softs mean -1 s, I would expect Alonso to be closer to Mercedes as well

Well from what i seen, Lotus is not that fast in one lap. Grosjean was only one who worked on short qualy runs, as Kimi worked on race setup. Grosjean said he was pushed a bit, and that's why he lost control and end up in wall. Yes he had some pretty good times, but he was nowhere near both Mercedes. Ferrari was quiet strange, and on moment showed he could seperate Mercedes. Red Bull was not shown to be strong enough, but they usually are with more fuel. So i dont know. For me both Mercedes and atleast Alonso are in front Grosjean, if you take Massa usually this season good form in qualy as he was 3 times in row faster then Alonso then you have both Ferrari's in front of Lotus.

I am fan of Lotus, but i still think best they can do is 4-6 in qualy and if it rains, I expect them around 8-9. Grosjean said he had problems with heating up tyers in one lap.

EDIT: Red Bull is fast car that is for sure. But their win's get from race with mixed conditions (when they need heat up tires quickly in one lap and run away), something similar like Ferrari last year. They obvious have problems with tires as they can't push enough in dry. Vettel for me is not leading championship, you need too take 7 points from his score, because those are Webber's points.

Incorrect, I don't know where these kind of ideas come from. Myth of short/long stints to justify performence. Of course after crash he did not complete SS runs, neither longer nor short.
14:05:07
2 1:38.217
3 1:16.999
4 1:16.096
5 1:27.896
6 1:15.998
7 1:24.003
8 1:15.718
9P 14:57.307
10 1:33.120
What you mean by "saw"? Times on softs are there, difference between softs and super softs, too. What' s there to see?

[Blackout]

Well from what i seen, Lotus is not that fast in one lap. Grosjean was only one who worked on short qualy runs, as Kimi worked on race setup. Grosjean said he was pushed a bit, and that's why he lost control and end up in wall. Yes he had some pretty good times, but he was nowhere near both Mercedes.

Not really...Grosjean did his fastest laps on used softs and relatively long runs. He was definetly fast and close to the Ferraris and Mercs. Maybe the E21 in Grosjean's hands needs more than one lap to score a competitive time, yes, but it's fast. Raikkonen seems to have some problems...

[OppositeLock]

The racing line is probably going to be extremely narrow with the way these Pirelli's are disintegrating. I'm predicting somebody steals the win thanks to a safety car incident.

[raymondu999]

The racing line is probably going to be extremely narrow with the way these Pirelli's are disintegrating.

I very much doubt that, the circuit is too slow to make many marbles. Maybe in the tunnel, through which there is only one line in the first place.

2011 and 2012 very much beg to differ with you. Just look at the number of accidents that happened because of the marbles.