Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

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Lurk
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Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 20:58

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Maxion wrote:
Lurk wrote:100kg/h = 2.56g/0.2s = 2.4ton/day.

It is a rate flow! It has no notion of frequency, therefore it must be respected all the time. The measure is done 5 times per second only because it is convenient. If they could have a continuous analogic measurement, they would have one.
Agreed, but there is no specification of measurement period in the technical regulations. The rule is stated with a measurement period of kilograms per hour. Using logic, one would assume then the measurement period to be one hour, no? The, to be compliant with the rule you cannot use more than one hundred kilograms of fuel in a one hour period.

Doing so you are in breach of the intent of the rule, but you are technically speaking not breaching it. With the technical regulations intent matters not, only technical compliance.

If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
The sensor is choosen by the FIA, not the teams themselves (even if they have their own flow rate sensors). So there is no way for the teams to find an interpretation of that : flow rate is given, sensor is given.
As I said, it FIA found a way to have a continuous analogic measurement they would have done that.

BTW don't forget the regulation that appears on FIA website is not the complete one. There is also all the technical notes send by Charlie, and I'm pretty sure something like how this sensor works was described in it.


edit @Paul: maybe it is a stupid question, but could it be done from fuel pump directly?
Anyway, they works on computer so they would still have a discrete, numeric measure in the end.

gobjb
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 17:39

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Maxion wrote:
Lurk wrote:100kg/h = 2.56g/0.2s = 2.4ton/day.

It is a rate flow! It has no notion of frequency, therefore it must be respected all the time. The measure is done 5 times per second only because it is convenient. If they could have a continuous analogic measurement, they would have one.
Agreed, but there is no specification of measurement period in the technical regulations. The rule is stated with a measurement period of kilograms per hour. Using logic, one would assume then the measurement period to be one hour, no? The, to be compliant with the rule you cannot use more than one hundred kilograms of fuel in a one hour period.

Doing so you are in breach of the intent of the rule, but you are technically speaking not breaching it. With the technical regulations intent matters not, only technical compliance.

If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
This would mean all rules on rotational speeds are largely meaningless as well since they are stated with a measurement period of rotations per minute.
Last edited by gobjb on 16 Mar 2014, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

tim|away
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Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 17:46

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Maxion wrote:If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
I completely agree. It is about what the rules actually say - not what they might have intended to say.

Article 5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.

If we take this literally (rules are black and white), the measuring frequency should be once an hour. It's also interesting to note that their initial measuring frequency of 10Hz created too much noise and therefore created too many false flags, so they already had to reduce it to 5Hz in an attempt to get rid of the peaks. One has to wonder
a) Did the change of measuring frequency really solve the issues with inaccuracies they had or did they just become less significant?
b) Does measuring at 5Hz/10Hz even comply with 5.1.4 if you take that article literally?

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Paul
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Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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In theory the shortest viable period of measurement is the shortest (no, longest) period between starts of sequential injections. But that would force the teams to equally distribute them, so no 'big bangs' or similar. Plus, in harsh conditions of F1 car measurement accuracy would be questionable, not at all surprised that even 10Hz produced erroneous results.

I am pretty sure that the reason actual rate isn't in the rules is that they were anticipating having to adjust it during the first race weekend...
Last edited by Paul on 16 Mar 2014, 14:21, edited 1 time in total.

Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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tim|away wrote:
Maxion wrote:If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
I completely agree. It is about what the rules actually say - not what they might have intended to say.

Article 5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.

If we take this literally (rules are black and white), the measuring frequency should be once an hour.
It's completely irrelevant, a 100kg/h flow is the same as a 27.78 g/s flow, which is the same as a 5.5 g/0.2s flow, how it's expressed is completely irrelevant. By the same notion, is the 15000 rpm limit only enforceable over a per minute basis?

feni_remmen
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Cold Fussion wrote:
tim|away wrote:
Maxion wrote:If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
I completely agree. It is about what the rules actually say - not what they might have intended to say.

Article 5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.

If we take this literally (rules are black and white), the measuring frequency should be once an hour.
It's completely irrelevant, a 100kg/h flow is the same as a 27.78 g/s flow, which is the same as a 5.5 g/0.2s flow, how it's expressed is completely irrelevant. By the same notion, is the 15000 rpm limit only enforceable over a per minute basis?
I completely agree. Either RedBull are taking the piss or they are saying the sensor got it wrong!

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Yes and pit speed limits should be measured once an hour. Additionally driver weights should be measured by dropping them from a height of 1m and measuring the resulting Ns^2
Not the engineer at Force India

sq948
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Joined: 16 Mar 2014, 14:14

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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tim|away wrote:
Maxion wrote:If the FIA intended this rule to be interpreted with a 10 Hz measurement period, then why is the flow limit stated as being per hour?
I completely agree. It is about what the rules actually say - not what they might have intended to say.

Article 5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
So when I'm driving with 200km/h in a 100km/h-zone for just 1 minite I'm ok because the sign says per hour?

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fritticaldi
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 23:55
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Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Motorsports.com is reporting Mercedes has breached the fuel flow rules.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Investigations take surprisingly long time.

piast9
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Joined: 16 Mar 2010, 00:39

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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NTS wrote:And on Twitter (and this forum) multiple people mentioned the measurement frequency went from 10 Hz to 5 Hz, for example: https://twitter.com/schneebdotcom/statu ... 3593899008
Nope, that's incorrect in my opinion. Here's the FIA note:
Image
5 Hz is the cutoff frequency of the lowpass FILTER used to condition the signal from the sensors before measurement. It doesn't say anything about the measurement intervals.

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mikeerfol
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Location: Greece

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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fritticaldi wrote:Motorsports.com is reporting Mercedes has breached the fuel flow rules.
The team, right?

henra
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Joined: 11 Mar 2012, 19:34

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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Cold Fussion wrote: It's completely irrelevant, a 100kg/h flow is the same as a 27.78 g/s flow, which is the same as a 5.5 g/0.2s flow, how it's expressed is completely irrelevant. By the same notion, is the 15000 rpm limit only enforceable over a per minute basis?
No it is not that simplistic.
In reality in such highly dynamic systems with high pressures you obviously get fluctuations.
The problem ist how to separate them from real exceedance.
It seems that is not quite settled yet.
Last edited by henra on 16 Mar 2014, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

basti313
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: 2014 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne 13-16th March

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piast9 wrote:
NTS wrote:And on Twitter (and this forum) multiple people mentioned the measurement frequency went from 10 Hz to 5 Hz, for example: https://twitter.com/schneebdotcom/statu ... 3593899008
Nope, that's incorrect in my opinion. Here's the FIA note:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi1yDZ6CMAAY_tN.jpg
5 Hz is the cutoff frequency of the lowpass FILTER used to condition the signal from the sensors before measurement. It doesn't say anything about the measurement intervals.
Sounds reasonable. But I would rather think about an integrator rather than a lowpass which is read and reset in a 5 or 10Hz frequency. A lowpass would just cost you information.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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gandharva
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Joined: 06 Feb 2012, 15:19
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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lombers wrote:
gandharva wrote:I wouldn't be too surprised if the teams data will proof FIA wrong. Also, it's currently under investigation and NOT the final decision.
Very unlikely. The FIA pull their data from the fuel flow sensor which they would have checked after the race to ensure it's accuracy. The fact that the report said he had "consistently" exceeded the fuel flow rate looks very bad.
If this is bulletproof, then explain why they already had to change the measurement method on friday?

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